The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.

Public Transport

Siân Gwenllian AC: 1. What steps is the Government taking to support people in Arfon who depend on public transport? OQ59390

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Siân Gwenllian for that question. Working with Gwynedd County Council, the Welsh Government has invested significantly in sustaining and improve bus services for the people of Arfon. New CAF trains are already running on north Wales lines. The north Wales transport commission will propose further improvements when it reports in the autumn.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you for the response. Constitunents in many communities in Arfon are entirely reliant on bus services to get to work, and they are deeply concerned about all of the uncertainty around the future of bus services. Some communities go from one crisis to another and are fighting hard to maintain a level of service that is inadequate in the first instance. There are constituents in Gerlan, Llys y Gwynt, Tal-y-bont, Deiniolen, Rhosgadfan, Nebo, and so on and so forth, who are at risk of being totally isolated at important times of the day. Unite the Union is calling on you as a Government to arrange an emergency summit to discuss the bus crisis, to include all key stakeholders. Will you acknowledge the gravity of the situation, and will you please arrange a summit as a matter of urgency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Siân Gwenllian for those points. The problem for people who rely on public transport is that many other people haven't returned to bus or train services since the COVID pandemic. Taxpayers, through the Welsh Government, have provided millions of pounds in additional funding to support public transport, but the funding raised though bus tickets is still much lower, and there is a new reality there that we have to face.
The Deputy Minister has already met, last week, with people in this area—the bus companies and members of local authorities and so forth, and, of course, we are continuing to discuss these issues with the unions. The Deputy Minister has heard what the Member has said this afternoon about a summit. If that would be useful, of course, we would be prepared to speak to people in that kind of forum. But discussions are ongoing to plan for the bus services of the future in this new context.

Sam Rowlands MS: I support Siân Gwenllian in raising this important issue here today. And, First Minister, I'm sure you will recognise also that, during the summer months, north Wales brings in a huge number of visitors, which certainly boost our communities through creating jobs and prosperity. Indeed, your own figures show that north Wales tourism day visits are around 22.7 million every year. And one of the things we desperately need during that peak season is increased provision of public transport. To me, it's unacceptable that parts of north Wales, whilst welcoming those many visitors, are having to work with a skeleton public transport system. It's not fair on the people who live there, as well as the visitors who come to enjoy our part of the world. So, First Minister, I wonder how you will ensure that there is appropriate public transport during the summer months in north Wales as we welcome more people in the summer ahead?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we do that by continuing to invest in bus services across north Wales, and in the Arfon area, where there is a strong case to do so. So, we continue to fund the key TrawsCymru T2 bus service, linking Bangor, Caernarfon, Porthmadog, Dolgellau and Aberystwyth. The service is due to be re-tendered this year, with a new contract for better services starting in September. And in the direct context of tourism, the Member, I know, will be glad to welcome the funding that has been provided as part of the north Wales metro programme—funding provided to Gwynedd Council to enable them to improve the popular Snowdon Sherpa bus network across the Eryri national park. The result is that, far from a skeleton service, there are now more accessible buses operating across the area seven days a week, linking key towns and visitor attractions, and that's a step change in provision for residents and visitors alike.

Carolyn Thomas AS: First Minister, would you agree that the Tory UK Government is directing a managed decline of the railways in Wales, while Welsh Government is trying to improve services? Having failed to invest in improving our network or give us consequential funding, they are now making performances worse by forcing Network Rail to actively plan a five-year decline, with more real-term cuts in funding, from 2024 to 2027, which is a huge concern. It could take the rail network 10 to 15 years to recover from this setback.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas for that very important supplementary question, because it will certainly affect people in Arfon who depend on public transport, because the UK Government, having failed to invest in improving our rail network over many years, are now actively planning to worsen the performance of the rail network under its own control. Network Rail's asset management plans for the next five-year period offer Wales the second worst funding settlement of anywhere in the United Kingdom. There will be a cash-terms reduction, let alone a real-terms reduction, in an era of rampant inflation—there will be a cash-terms reduction in funding available to Network Rail in Wales over the five years from 2024 to 2029. Network Rail's own plan points to an increase in infrastructure failures in Wales and deteriorating assets, which will cause services to be less reliable and less likely to run on time. That is what the UK Government is planning to happen in Wales, and Carolyn Thomas is absolutely right to point to it as an essential context in which the efforts of the Welsh Government to support public transport here has to take place.

Construction Sector Apprenticeships

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of the provision of apprenticeships in the construction sector? OQ59414

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to working with employers and our contracted providers to increase apprentice provision across the construction sector and ensure that apprentices are trained to the highest possible standard.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that. It's good to hear that you have committed to working with providers and private companies that do provide these opportunities, because some of those have been in touch with me, expressing great disappointment that it's now not possible to offer level 2 apprenticeships for those who want to follow a career in civil engineering. Now, the entry standards for a level 3 apprenticeship requires a C and a D at GCSE level, where, of course, under level 2, the same requirement didn't exist. Now, the result of that is that it does exclude many people who would have gone on to follow prosperous careers in these sectors. It also places more burden on the providers, the construction companies and the civil engineering companies that provide these opportunities, and some of them tell me that, as a result, they wouldn't be eager to continue. So, can I ask the Government to reconsider this decision, because perhaps on the face of it it might look like a sensible step, but, on a practical level, it will have a negative impact?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I've heard the concerns expressed by some companies in north Wales, but we have reformed the qualifications regime under the leadership of employers in the sector. It was they who suggested the new system that we have, and they have done so because they are of the view that the new system will help the recruitment of apprentices who can complete their training successfully and who bring the practical skills needed to work in the sector. That's the intention behind the new system—to help the sector with people emerging from colleges to complete apprenticeships with the skills that they can use successfully. And the problem in terms of recruiting people at level 2 is that evidence shows that they don't, on the whole, do everything that they need to do to be successful in the sector. However, people in the colleges and in the system in north Wales have heard the concerns of some employers up in north Wales, and the Construction Industry Training Board—the board that pulls people together—is going to speak to those companies to see whether there is anything we can do to respond to the problems that they feel that they face.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that we need to increase the level of apprenticeships in the construction sector in all parts of Wales, and I'm hopeful that the recent free-port announcement, which is a great example of Governments working together in Wales's best interests, will provide some momentum to provide more opportunities in my constituency and, indeed, across west Wales. Therefore, can you tell us what discussions are taking place with stakeholders to ensure that apprenticeships and, indeed, other vocational skills courses are being made available as part of the free-port programme in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Paul Davies for the question and welcome him back to his place here in the Chamber this afternoon? I want to agree with him about the work that has gone on in the free-port programme, where a system of genuinely joint decision making was agreed between the UK Government and the Welsh Government, and which led, just prior to the Easter break, to the announcement of two free ports in Wales.
Now, I was fortunate enough to be in Pembroke college on Thursday of last week and to take part in the opening of the new engineering and construction facility that they have at the college, and all the talk in that event amongst young people and the college authorities and the employers who were there was about the new opportunities that lie in the future for the Pembrokeshire economy and for young people growing up in that area. And I was very heartened to learn about not only the state-of-the-art facilities that are now available for young people at the college, but the way in which curriculums are being adapted to make sure that the skills that are being learnt in traditional industries will equip those young people for the new opportunities that will be there in renewable energy through the free-port impact and so on. And I was fortunate enough, Llywydd, beyond the meeting at the college, to go on and meet employers separately, and to visit the port at Milford Haven and to hear from port authorities as well about the way in which people are working together to try and achieve exactly the aims and ambitions that Paul Davies has articulated this afternoon.

Hefin David AC: I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome over 20 Caerphilly Ukrainians who are in the gallery today, and they've, of course, been displaced by the terrible war in Ukraine and they're very welcome here today.
I'd like to follow on from Llyr Gruffydd's question, particularly regarding apprenticeships. I've just had the privilege of completing a report for the Welsh Government, at the request of the First Minister and the education Minister, which I'm submitting this week, and one of the things that I've been able to do is speak to people across the tertiary sector. And one of the things that's become clear is that the sector is quite fragmented, and I know that the Commission for Education and Tertiary Research will have a role in resolving that. I wonder if the First Minister would agree. And I look forward in future then to presenting further recommendations to Government that would help resolve some of the issues that have been raised by Llyr and other Members across this Chamber.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I, too, welcome visitors to the Senedd this afternoon? And can I thank the Member for the work that he has just completed, commissioned by the education Minister to look at the system as it currently operates. I know the amount of time that the Member has spent out there talking to people who provide training and employers who rely on the skills that are created as the result of that. I was very pleased to hear that the report has a series of practical recommendations that show where improvement can most readily be achieved in the sector. I look forward to reading the report myself. I think I know that the Member has a meeting with Welsh Government officials later this afternoon so that we can begin as quickly as possible to take the practical benefits from the work in which he has been engaged.

In the spirit of welcoming people to the public gallery this afternoon, if I can also welcome the speaker and the clerk of the Tasmanian Parliament to our public gallery this afternoon and to our Senedd here in Wales. I see a lot of young people here in the gallery as well—welcome to you all. I think Ysgol Comins Coch from Aberystwyth may well be in the gallery, so I particularly welcome you. Thank you for giving me that opportunity. I've promised the speaker of the Tasmanian Parliament that we're very well behaved in this Parliament. I'm about to call the leaders of the political parties, so I hope that you will show us at our best behaviour.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Here we go—the leader of the opposition, the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the chair of the British Medical Associationcame out over the weekend and said that the NHS in Wales is not functional. That would cause a deep amount of concern amongst people wherever they rely on the health service to deliver across Wales. She cited three examples, one being ambulance response times, two, the waits in A&E, and three, people not progressing up the waiting lists, which would benchmark how successful the NHS is here in Wales. Regrettably, people are having to go abroad for those procedures. Do you agree with the chair of the BMA that the NHS in Wales is not functional on those measures?

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't agree with what the chair of the BMA said about the Welsh NHS not being functional. Of course I agree that there are parts of our NHS that are under the most enormous strain from the volume of people needing to access those services. But the Welsh NHS, Llywydd, for a population of 3 million people, deals with 2 million contacts every single month from people here in Wales. I don't believe that a system that has 2 million contacts with the Welsh population every single month could in any fair sense be described as a system that is failing.

Andrew RT Davies AC: The points I put to you, First Minister, were around specific areas of the NHS that the chair of the BMA highlighted as not being functional and people not seeing the results that they require when they engage with the NHS. Surely it should be a priority for this Government to make sure that those response times improve, and where people require access to the NHS, they can have it in a timely manner. Do you agree with me that that needs to be a key priority, and what isn't a priority for the Government is to seek to pay the £1,600 to people who have not had settled status in this country and act as a pull factor to line the pockets of people smugglers on the other side of the channel?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, Llywydd, I do agree that, of course, access to the NHS for people in an emergency, or for people waiting for planned care, is a very important priority for this Government. The figures that were published during the recess showed that the number of people waiting for treatment in the Welsh NHS continues to go down, that long waits are falling, and that performance of our emergency departments exceeded the performance of departments in England for the seventh month in a row. So, I agree with him about the priority and I think there is evidence of the system responding.
As to the remarks that the leader of the opposition made about our universal basic income pilot, let me be clear with Members: this is a pilot that is aimed at helping some of the most vulnerable children and young people in our community. That's what the pilot is about. These are children emerging from the care of public authorities in Wales. Amongst them are a very small number of young people who are in the care of a local authority because they have come to Wales from some of the most war-torn places on the face of the planet. They arrive with nobody and with nothing. They are unaccompanied children. They are looked after by our local authorities, and when they leave the care of the local authority, this is a Government—and has, generally, Llywydd, been a Senedd—that wishes to see everything done to give those children the best possible start in life. That is what we are talking about: the future of vulnerable children. I have thought over 20 years that that was a shared ambition across this Chamber, and I hope it will continue to be so in the future.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It certainly will be shared across this Chamber, First Minister, because we shouldn't be conflating the two issues; we should be doing all we can—[Interruption.] We should be doing all we can to support those who need help and the state to intervene to support them. But what we cannot have—[Interruption.]

I do need to hear Andrew R.T. Davies, and the First Minister needs to hear him. If I can have some silence.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I can hear the Deputy Minister for transport chuntering away, but he's said many a time he doesn't know what he's doing, and on this particular issue I'd agree as well that he doesn't know what he's doing. It cannot be right that measures that are put in place could potentially act as a pull factor that would line the pockets of those awful people who take advantage of vulnerable souls on the other side of the channel. My point to your good self was about the priorities that the Government has when you have the chair of the BMA highlighting that the health service in Wales is not functional, yet you have three Ministers asking for powers to hand money over to people who have not had confirmed status. That surely is where your priorities should lie, and I make no apology for amplifying that and making sure that Welsh Government money is spent on the people's priorities here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the leader of the opposition says to me that I should not conflate two issues, when he has invited me to do exactly that and returned to that theme in his final contribution. It is plainly nonsensical to imagine that some poor child in a war-torn part of the world thinks they will embark on the astonishingly perilous journeys that people make, to come to Wales, because a tiny handful of children are beneficiaries of our scheme here. When Ministers wrote to the UK Government, all we asked is that they operate their responsibilities for legal aid in a way that did not disadvantage those young people even further. It's deeply disappointing to me that they weren't prepared to do that, but it's even more shameful that they should make those children the object of a nakedly political attempt to make this another dog-whistle issue for the sorts of voters to which the Member unfortunately seeks to appeal.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Can I say, on behalf of my party, that I think that showing a commitment to compassion to vulnerable young people fleeing war and oppression, coming here—? You know, a declaration of a nation of sanctuary is in itself not enough. We have to actually practise it, and that should be a priority for us, because it is at the heart of the best values of our nation.
Can I turn, First Minister, to another matter? On 28 February, earlier this year, in reference to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, you said:
'The decision, and it is a decision of Ministers, to take the board out of special measures was because we were advised that that is what we should do by the auditor general, by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and by Welsh Government officials'.
Do you stand by that statement?

Mark Drakeford AC: I do stand by it, Llywydd, because it was an attempt to capture the process by which organisations in the Welsh NHS are either escalated in terms of intervention or de-escalated. I've written, Llywydd, to you to assist Members in making clear that process.FootnoteLink I know you intend to make that letter available to all Members. I’m very happy to summarise it again today so there can be no doubt in Members’ minds about the way the system operates. It has three distinct stages. It begins with a tripartite meeting that involves the auditor general’s office, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, and senior officials of the Welsh Government. They discuss whether or not an organisation needs additional intervention or whether intervention can be pulled back. In a second and separate stage, the advice that goes to Ministers comes from civil servants. They draw on the tripartite discussion that happens at the first stage, and they include other considerations as well. The third and final stage is the ministerial decision making. That is how the process operates. That is what I was attempting to convey when I last answered that question, by being clear that Ministers decide and advice comes from civil servants. I’m very happy to make that available to Members so that no confusion can exist in the future.FootnoteLink

Letter from the First Minister on 24 April 2023.

Letter from the First Minister on 26 April 2023.

Adam Price AC: Following the decision to lift Betsi Cadwaladr out of special measures, the auditor general wrote to the Welsh Government on 26 November 2020 to say that it was
'unhelpful for the minister to imply that he had received direct advice from me or my staff on the escalation status of the health board’.
In his letter, the auditor general says the amended notes of the tripartite discussion make it clear that did not happen, but unfortunately that clarity did not translate through into the ministerial statement or indeed the Plenary discussion that followed it. The auditor general says that, had they been given sufficient opportunity in advance, they would have asked for the ministerial statement to be amended. Why was an oral or written statement not made to the Senedd to correct the record following the receipt of this letter?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there was no record to correct because the Minister will have acted on the basis of the system that I have set out to Members this afternoon. Each decision, whether to do more or to do less, follows that three-stage process. I’ve set it out for Members. I don’t think I can help the Member any further on that matter.

Adam Price AC: Your statement, First Minister, and that of your ministerial colleague at the time, gave the impression that there was a universally shared view around the tripartite table, but the auditor general tells us that, on the contrary, at the meeting of the tripartite group on 13 November 2020—and I’m quoting now—
'differing views were expressed on whether the Health Board should stay in special measures'.
Will you publish the notes of that meeting? Can you confirm that Ministers were made aware of the auditor general’s letter? And can you also confirm that the auditor general has written to the Welsh Government on several other occasions to raise similar concerns?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, what I can say to Members is this: it is no surprise, of course, that differing views are expressed in such a meeting—that’s why a meeting is called, in order to make sure that those different perspectives are all available. But the advice that goes to Ministers—let me be clear to Members again—does not come directly from the tripartite meeting, it comes in a second and separate stage from civil servants. That is the advice that Ministers see, that is the advice that Ministers draw on, but in the end it is Ministers, in that third stage, who make the decision. That is what happened in 2020, it’s what happens every time the tripartite system gets together. It does that twice a year. The system operates as I’ve just explained. I don’t think I could be clearer.

Welsh Gross Value Added

Mike Hedges AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government helping to increase the Welsh gross value added? OQ59379

Mark Drakeford AC: Gross value added is a measure of a nation's economic output. The Welsh Government supports economic growth through investment in skills and infrastructure. Taken alone, however, gross value added is an imperfect guide to the health of any economy.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the First Minister for that. It's an imperfect guide, but it is a guide, and I think the most successful economies have high GVA. While most economies in Europe, Asia and North America have tourism, agriculture and the foundation economy as part of their economy, the successful ones—the ones we hope to emulate—have a higher proportion of their workforce in information and communications technology, life sciences, advanced manufacturing and professional services than we do in Wales. What is the Welsh Government doing to work with universities and others to increase the promotion of higher paid and higher skilled employment in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course, I agree that GVA is one important measure of the performance of an economy, and I know that Mike Hedges will have noticed that in the latest available figures, Wales is doing better than any other UK nation in increasing GVA. GVA per head in the period between 2017 and 2020 grew by 3.5 per cent in Wales, 2.6 per cent in England and 2.2 per cent in Scotland. I think you see in those figures the impact of the strategy that the Welsh Government has been pursuing.
As I said, our essential strategy is to invest in people. Thinking of the question that we had earlier this afternoon from Llyr Gruffydd, you will certainly see that, for example, in Airbus, in the Member's part of north Wales, degree apprenticeships are such an integral part of the way in which that company has such outstanding success. But, you see it as well in the creative industries; a 40 per cent growth in the number of people working in the sector in the last decade, and that very much is a reflection of the investment that the Welsh Government, through our education providers, has made in increasing the skills of the sector, attracting companies to come here and make their productions in Wales.
At the same time, we invest in facilities—the advanced manufacturing centre in north Wales and the global centre of rail excellence here in south Wales, both investments that will lead to the sort of additionally skilled workforce to which Mike Hedges pointed, but with the infrastructure and the equipment that allow those skills to increase productivity in a way that leads to better GVA.
And, of course, we go on, Llywydd, investing alongside companies that bring that sense of productivity gain to the Welsh economy. The Minister for Economy met recently, for example, in the United States with KLA to discuss their $100 million expansion of their Newport facility, and I was very pleased to be with Mike Hedges in Swansea in December with Veeqo, a company where he and I heard from the young people whom they have attracted to work in that industry about the way in which it has been the investment in skills, equipment and opportunity that has attracted them back to Wales, bringing about that increase in highly skilled, highly paid jobs that lead to the GVA improvement that lay at the heart of this question.

Peter Fox AS: I thank Mike Hedges for raising this important point and sharing the issue with GVA in Wales. We have 5 per cent of the population and 3.4 per cent of the UK's wealth, and since 1999, notwithstanding what the First Minister has just shared, we've had the lowest GVA in the United Kingdom. We know that there are many reasons around that, and it's heartening to hear some of the good things that are now happening, but we do need to see more decisive action to improve productivity and growth, boosting wages and employment.First Minister, I wonder whether you could give us some examples of meaningful targets that your Government is setting in order to make sure that Wales is on track to reach its fullest potential.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree, on this point, certainly, with Peter Fox, that productivity, and the paradox of stalled productivity, lies at the heart of the challenge faced by UK economy. If we are to see, as we would certainly want to see, a growing economy—a cake that grows so that you can share out the proceeds of growth—then better productivity has to be at the heart of that. Productivity has stalled in the UK economy now for a decade. I think the thing that distinguishes those economies in other parts of Europe where growth continues is the investment in the plant, the machinery and the infrastructure that allow highly skilled employees to make their biggest contribution to that economic growth. Why is it that it takes a worker five days to produce what a worker in France can produce in four? It's not because the people are different, and I don't think it is, on the whole, because skill levels are different. I think it is that people elsewhere have at their disposal a more modern set of equipment, of machinery, of investment by industry, and that is what would allow productivity growth to be resumed inside the UK economy.
The Member will find in our economic mission those ambitions that we have set out for exploiting the comparative advantages that we have here in Wales in many sectors: semiconductors, cyber security, life sciences, the creative industries, renewable energy and advanced manufacturing. We have in Wales so much that is on our side in creating the economy of the future. We need, working with others, including the UK Government, to create the conditions in which the people who work in those industries can make the biggest contribution that they are able to to the sort of growth economy that we would want to see in the future.

Luke Fletcher AS: One sector of the economy that contributes massively to Welsh GVA is the hospitality sector. I'm sure that the First Minister is pleased that the campaign to bring the Worldchefs Congress and Expo to Wales has been a success, with Wales set to be on the world culinary stage in May 2026 after Singapore. Will the First Minister join me in congratulating the team behind the campaign, but, more importantly, would the Welsh Government consider supporting the event through declaring 2026 the year of Welsh food and drink, promoting our food and drink sector to the world and, no doubt, in the long term, improving GVA?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh food and drink sector is another great success story of the Welsh economy, far exceeding the targets that were set out for it by my colleague Lesley Griffiths when she first set out a growth pathway for that industry. It is very good news that we've attracted that competition here to Wales. We had an early taste of it with chefs in—sorry, not everybody notices these things. [Laughter.] We had an early sense of that when we had chefs from around the world in Newport last year. I'm looking forward to 2026, and the Minister responsible is in active discussions with colleagues in the food and drink sector as to how the Welsh Government can make our contribution to making the very most of the opportunity that that will bring.

Gender Identity Development Service

Altaf Hussain AS: 4. What recent discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the reconfiguration of the gender identity development service? OQ59400

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, this responsibility lies with the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and is discharged through its membership of the NHS England programme board for gender dysphoria services.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, First Minister. The collapse of the Tavistock's gender service for children was truly shocking. As Dr Hilary Cass put it in conducting a review of the gender identity development service, it was not a safe or viable long-term option. Thankfully, NHS England agreed that the service was unsafe and shut the service down to be replaced by two regional centres providing services for England and Wales patients. First Minister, BBC journalist and author of the great book about Tavistock, Hannah Barnes has uncovered that two of the senior doctors from Tavistock are now responsible for the direct training of cohorts of staff at the new centres. At one stage, a GIDS director was considered for inclusion on the interview panel for the new roles. Do you think this is acceptable, given the findings of the Cass review, and what steps will the Welsh Government be taking to ensure that the reconstituted gender identity development service is safe for Welsh patients?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me first of all say that the Welsh Government wants to see what the Cass review said: services that are safe and effective, and our ambition is to bring more of those services closer to home. The business of who sits on interview panels in the English NHS is not a responsibility of the Welsh Government, and really, I cannot be drawn into the discussion that the Member set out.
What we know is that referrals of young people into such services have grown very quickly over the last decade. Ten years ago, there were seven referrals from Wales into gender identity services. In the last year for which figures are available, a decade later, that figure was 159 children. I completely understand why a single service could not be expected to deal with an increase in the volume of demand of that sort, because that increase in demand was reflected not just in Wales but elsewhere as well. In the short run, young people from Wales will be referred to one of the two new centres that will be established, but the aim is, as I understand it, to move to up to eight regional centres for this service. We will want to see, as we have done successfully in adult gender services, more of the pathway brought as close to home for those young people as possible. We will await the outcome of the Cass review—it's still not complete—and then, we will work with others to make sure that there are services for young people who question their gender identity that are safe, that are effective, and that are shaped by the voice of those young people, and a service that is both not stigmatising and doesn't rest on an exclusive and lengthy medicalised route.
I read carefully the contribution that the Member made in an earlier debate on this matter, and there was a great deal in what he had to say with which I agreed. And I hope it will be possible in Wales to go on working together to make sure that we provide a service for young people that meets the criteria set out in the Cass review and the spirit with which we would wish young people to be treated here in Wales.

Prepayment Meters

Jenny Rathbone AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government's assessment of Ofgem's latest proposal to allow energy companies to resume forcing households onto prepayment meters? OQ59415

Mark Drakeford AC: These changes are voluntary and they certainly do not go far enough. It is our view that the forced installation of prepayment meters should be banned completely. The Minister for Social Justice is meeting with Ofgem tomorrow and will make the case for further action to protect households in Wales.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, First Minister. The evidence provided by Citizens Advice Cymru does not make for encouraging reading. We learn of households being threatened with prepayment meters, even during the so-called moratorium on forced installation; customers threatened with prepayment meters, even though they're on the energy suppliers' list of priority service registers, which means that they are a vulnerable individual; we have a widow with a smart meter switched to prepayment meters without her consent, to claw back a debt she didn't even realise she had; and we have a care leaver with a sick child, given two days' notice of a switch by a single text—no discussion about vulnerability, or any discussion about a repayment plan for a £5,000 debt that she did not realise she had accumulated. What is the point of a voluntary code when suppliers are already in breach of it before it has even started?
Disconnection of energy supply to households who are on pay-as-you-go meters never happens without a court order being in place, and we have these suppliers making massive profits and using smart meters and prepayment meters to disconnect heat and light from households whose only crime is poverty.As Ofgem is a paper tiger with no teeth, what powers does the Welsh Government have to impose a statutory code of practice, similar to the one adhered to by water companies?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I regret the fact that the Welsh Government has no powers to require the action that Jenny Rathbone has set out, because energy policy is a reserved matter and those actions can only lie with UK Ministers. The cases that Jenny Rathbone has outlined demonstrate the continued unsatisfactory nature of the proposals that Ofgem have published. Now, Jonathan Brearley, the chief executive of Ofgem, tells us that it is their ambition to move as fast as possible to have that code turned from a voluntary code into a statutory requirement on the industry, in which a licence, as issued by Ofgem, would depend upon compliance with the code. Well, I would like to see the code strengthened, and I certainly want to see it obligatory rather than voluntary.
And, Llywydd, the Member made another very important point, which is often overlooked, I think, in the debate about prepayment meters: when a prepayment meter is forcibly installed in somebody's house, it isn't simply in order to pay for the electricity that that household is consuming, it is in order to recover debt. So, what happens is that the meter is turned up so that, even for the poorest people in the land, they get even less electricity for their money than anybody else. And that surely cannot be the right way of proceeding. We have advocated—and, on this point, Ofgem agree with us—a social tariff system in the energy industry. We wish UK Government Ministers would come to the table to make sure that that could happen.

Health Service Staff Shortages

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on staff shortages within the health service? OQ59410

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question, Llywydd. More staff are working in the Welsh NHS than at any time in its history—a history that spans more than 75 years. Where shortages occur, health boards undertake vigorous recruitment, locally and internationally. That includes recruitment of record numbers of staff completing their training every year in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Llywydd, back in 2013, the then health Minister, our current First Minister, welcomed a £5 million investment to Tywyn community hospital. Announcing the investment, he said:
'An increase in bed numbers and the integration of several services here will enable more people to be cared for closer to home in an environment which is fit for purpose.'
A decade on and things have taken a dramatic turn for the worse. The maternity unit has been closed, the minor injuries unit has been closed, and only two weeks ago, and without notice, the in-patient ward was closed—in all cases, we're told, temporarily. These were the very services championed by the First Minister back in 2013. This series of closures is largely the consequence of a failure to retain and recruit staff, particularly nurses. What we're seeing in Tywyn will be repeated elsewhere. To reopen the in-patient ward, we need four nurses on bands 6 and 7, and another four to reopen the minor injuries unit. So, what steps is the Government taking to assist the health board to recruit nurses to Tywyn and north Wales so that my constituents can be cared for closer to home and in an environment that is fit for purpose?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, well I'm aware, of course, of the developments at Tywyn community hospital. What the health board has done, for the next three months, is to concentrate its available staff resources at Dolgellau so that there can be a service available in that area. My understanding is that, on 12 April, when the decision was made, there were eight patients in in-patient beds at Tywyn, four of whom were due to be discharged home, and four people were to be moved to Dolgellau for their continuing care. Now the health board has a plan to reopen services at Tywyn. That does involve vigorous recruitment, both locally but also, as I said in my original answer, internationally—400 nurses recruited into Wales last year from international sources, with a plan to recruit another 400 in the current year. The health board is also working with its partners on a new model of service for Tywyn, an innovative new model that will draw on staff currently working in the community as well as staff who will be based at the hospital, all with the shared aim—it's a shared aim, I know, of the Member, but certainly of the health board as well—to restore the service that has been temporarily withdrawn at the hospital.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I wanted to talk about the shortage of dentists within our NHS services again, and that's across Wales. I was really pleased to read the Government's acceptance of the recommendations from the Health and Social Care Committee, particularly with regards to dental therapists and dental hygienists being able to open and, indeed, close treatments, and that there's no regulatory barrier to that happening, which would of course increase the opportunities to have more people into our NHS dentists. Therefore, I would be pleased to hear from you what your plans are to ensure that more people in Wales are able to access NHS dentistry using this recommendation from the Health and Social Care Committee. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jane Dodds.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank her for giving me the opportunity to repeat again a theme that I have tried to develop on the floor of the Senedd over an extended period when it comes to dentistry, and that is the importance of diversifying that profession. Dentists themselves are the most highly skilled and most expensive resource we have in that field. No dentist should be routinely spending their time carrying out activity that somebody else in that liberalised profession could do equally clinically successfully. You need the supervision, of course, of a fully qualified dentist. There needs to be somebody on the premises in case an inspection or a simple filling, for example, turns out to be more complicated than originally envisaged. But we know that the high-volume end of dentistry can just as successfully be carried out by people with qualifications in dental therapy and dental hygiene. That's why we have a significant new number of dental therapy places at Cardiff University, doubling the number of students there, and we've also doubled the number—sorry, we also have a new dental hygiene programme at Bangor University. By making sure we train that wider range of professionals, working under the ambit of a qualified dentist, we will increase the accessibility of NHS dentistry across Wales. Frankly, the profession have been slow in embracing this agenda. They're well behind what their colleagues in primary care have already achieved, and we need to make sure that the Welsh Government drives forward our ambition to see, as I say, a liberalised workforce where we can do more to make sure that people in Wales seeking access to NHS dentistry are able to receive it.

Holiday Lets

Joel James MS: 7. Will the First Minister set out the rationale and evidence used to determine the 182-day minimum rental period for holiday lets to be classified as non-domestic self-catering accommodation? OQ59385

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the rationale for the changed arrangements is to ensure that property owners make a fair contribution to their local communities. The evidence used has been available for over 12 months. It was published alongside the outcome of our consultation on this matter in March 2022.

Joel James MS: Thank you, First Minister. I didn't quite catch all of that, because of the audio system, but, as you will be aware, there is considerable concern and confusion among the non-domestic self-catering accommodation market in Wales regarding the Welsh Government's support for a 182-day minimum occupancy target, as the industry itself had recommended only a 105-day minimum period, believing it was more in tune with the market, given the limited season in Wales. Speaking to representatives from the tourism sector, they believe that the majority of self-catering accommodation that will be affected will not be in areas that have large numbers of second homes, but will be in rural areas where owners and businesses, such as farms, are trying to diversify their income streams in order to survive. Thus it appears that this policy would be unlikely to have any significant impact on reducing the number of second homes, but instead simply punish businesses that are trying to earn a living. If they must, or if they're that desperate, owners of these properties are also quite free to rent out their accommodation for a nominal amount to friends or family to achieve the 182-day minimum target and thus qualify for business rates and avoid the additional extra council tax payments, which I imagine is not the outcome you had envisaged. So, in my mind, First Minister, and with genuine curiosity, why are you so supportive of this poor legislation that so clearly will not achieve its stated aims? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course I am supportive of the regulations that were debated on the floor of this Senedd on a motion to annul, and that motion was defeated, so I am carrying out the policy of the elected Senedd here in Wales. I don't agree with the Member; I believe that the policy will have a number of very important successes. To begin with, I'm not as pessimistic as the Member about the state of the sector. The tourism occupation survey showed that average occupancy of self-catering properties in Wales exceeded 50 per cent over the three years prior to the pandemic. Many operators in all parts of Wales are already meeting the new criteria. Where businesses are not meeting the new criteria, there will be an incentive now for the increased use of under-utilised properties. It will also have an impact on unfair competition, where occasional or casual letting has an impact on genuine businesses, and I think the Member may have missed the fact that the Minister has listened to the debate, has made changes to the treatment of properties, such as on farms, which cannot be let throughout the year because of planning restrictions. This is a policy designed to make sure that genuine businesses are able to take advantage of small business rate relief. People who don't meet the threshold don't go out of business; they simply have to pay the council tax, like everybody else, and that seems to me fair to everybody who is involved in this sector.

And finally, question 8, Rhys ab Owen.

Former Allied Steel and Wire Workers' Pensions

Rhys ab Owen AS: 8. What discussions has the First Minister had regarding the impact of the UK Government’s financial assistance scheme on former Allied Steel and Wire workers in Cardiff and their pensions? OQ59393

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I have repeatedly called upon the UK Government to improve the financial assistance scheme and increase its financial support and coverage. This is a reserved matter, and I'm disappointed that the UK Government is failing to secure the pensions justice these workers deserve.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister, and for your support for these workers.

Rhys ab Owen AS: It's been 22 years since the former workers were denied their entitled pensions. There were 140,000 pension victims in the financial assistance scheme. Sadly, 25,000 have already passed away. Many, such as Johnny Jones, a former ASW worker who passed away earlier this year, died worrying that their partners would not be able to survive on a much reduced pension to what he had trustingly paid for during his working life. As you're aware, the main issue is that the pension now, unlike the original scheme, is not inflation-proof, which means they're receiving around a third of what they had originally expected and planned for. The campaigners are very critical of the lack of engagement with the current UK Government. A number of them wrote to the leader of the opposition last September, but are yet to receive a reply. Has the Prif Weinidog raised this matter with Sir Keir Starmer, and can he guarantee some chwarae teg to the ASW workers under a future Labour Government? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course I'm very well aware of the continuing campaign. Many Members here will have received the latest bulletin that John Benson, that long-term campaigneron behalf of ASW workers, has circulated to all Members here. And he makes the point, as he has done so often, that these pensions are not a gift; they are a deferred salary. The contributions were made in good faith by ASW workers, in the expectation that they would receive security in retirement.
In answer to my last letter, the UK Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions told me that the Government is content with the current pension protection regime. Well, I don't think Members in this Chamber are content, when you hear of the cases that our colleague has outlined this afternoon. I remind Members that it was a Labour Government that introduced the financial assistance scheme in the first place in 2004, and the pension protection fund in 2005. And I'm sure that, along with a very long list of other things that will need to be put right by the next Labour Government, the fate of ASW workers, and others like them, will be in the minds of my colleagues at Westminster as they prepare, as I hope they will be, for Government.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are three changes to this week's business. Firstly, the statement on shared prosperity and levelling up has been moved later on on today's agenda. Secondly, the Deputy Minister for Social Services will make a statement on historical adoption practices. And, finally, the time allocated to the Construction Contracts (Exclusion) (Wales) Order 2023 has been reduced to five minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Sam Rowlands MS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister for north Wales in relation to Wrexham's promotion to the football league, and the measures that Welsh Government are taking to help ensure that the whole area receives a boost across sport, tourism and the economy, of course. Minister, I'm sure you'd agree that Wrexham Association Football Club deserve huge congratulations on their wonderful title winning achievement last weekend. The players and staff, of course, are writing a new chapter in the history of the club, but it's not just on the pitch that Wrexham is making those strides forward; the transformative investment and backing of Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney have not just put the team back into the football league, but have rejuvenated the city of Wrexham and north Wales as a whole.
You will know, Minister, just listening around the stadium, that the global focus is unprecedented—visitors from all over the globe visiting the city like never before, especially from the United States and Canada. And all these visitors from overseas play a hugely positive and much-needed role in job creation and the economic growth that will follow in the supply chain. I'm sure, like you, I'd like to see this opportunity grasped with both hands for the good people of Wrexham and north Wales. So, a statement, Minister, from yourself on the good work that I hope Welsh Government are going to do to ensure the boost for sport, north Wales and tourism.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Where do I begin? Certainly not four o'clock in the morning on Sunday. [Laughter.] You raise a really important point, obviously. I can't get away without saying something very wonderful about my wonderful Wrexham football team. It's 15 years since I was up in Hereford when we went out of the league, and to get back after 15 years is an incredible achievement. Phil Parkinson has done something that very few managers before him were able to do. But I think you do make a very important point about the economic impact on my constituency, and, obviously, as the Member of the Senedd for Wrexham, I'm very careful to split the two things.
Clearly, the global interest is just incredible. You could not buy it, could you? And having the co-chairmen that we have, I think, that show the support—for me, that's what football is all about. And the commitment they show to the club is exceptional, and if only more football clubs were run that way. And, certainly, we've had our very poor owners in Wrexham, and I think Wrexham is now justifiably basking in the glory of it. But, I think, the Welsh Government has obviously shown a great commitment to the Wrexham Gateway—of course, the Racecourse stadium is part of that gateway—by giving Wrexham County Borough Council £25 million, and they're obviously now looking at how they will share that £25 million out.

Cefin Campbell MS: May I ask for a statement regarding the Welsh Government's commitment to establishing a community bank? Unfortunately, over the past few weeks, several towns in my region have suffered a significant blow, with the news that their banks are closing. For example, the last bank in Llandeilo will close in June. And in August, the Lloyds branch in Tumble will close, which will mean that there won't be any banks open in the whole Gwendraeth valley. And in Ystradgynlais, which serves a population of about 8,000, that bank is closing—the final one—in September this year.
Now, there is no doubt that the way that we bank has changed; we all—well, the majority of us—bank online by now. But older people, vulnerable people, those who own small businesses, organisations, and so forth, want to see more face-to-face services. So, could you provide us with an update on the situation in terms of establishing a Wales community bank—banc Cambria—and is there a commitment to establish branches of it in the Mid and West Wales region? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member may be aware of the written statement that the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething, issued back in February of this year, in which he committed to a further update to Members of the Senedd before the summer recess. I don't have any of that detail, but I can assure Members that I will ensure that the Minister does update us before the summer recess.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We're going to go from the highs of success with Wrexham to a very different chart of achievement, unfortunately, that my constituency figured in over the recess period. It's a very worrying chart, based on data provided by Dŵr Cymru, so publicly available, but extrapolated then by Surfers Against Sewage, and others, who looked at the number of discharges into rivers across the UK, including here within Wales, and also extrapolated then what those discharges meant in terms of number of days, number of hours. We're talking about one individual combined sewage outfall where they extrapolated that it could be in excess of 320 days of raw sewage coming into one of our rivers. Now, we have some of the most beautiful and biodiverse rivers within my constituency—the Ewenny river, Llynfi, the Ogmore, and the Garw Fechan rivers—coming into, all flowing into the Ogmore, as it goes out into the sea at Ogmore-by-Sea. I've met with Dŵr Cymru this morning, I'm going to meet with them subsequently as well, along with Chris Elmore MP, to discuss this in detail, on every single pipeline. But one of the challenges here is that it's been reported on this Top of the Poops website—[Interruption.] Yes, indeed. It's been reported as fact, the exact extrapolation of the data, and I'm not clear myself whether that data is hard and fast or not. So, I wonder, could we have a statement that actually clarifies, not only the data that's publicly available, but what that means in terms of hours and days of releases in individual rivers? Because otherwise, the public are going to be very confused. But the simple fact is: we also need to clean this up.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you're doing absolutely the right thing by meeting with Dŵr Cymru. And you will know that the Minister for Climate Change is doing a great deal of work in this area, and has a taskforce. So, with regard to your specific ask for the statement, we are proposing a written statement on the work of the taskforce—it will probably be towards the end of this term, just prior to the summer recess, because that would be 12 months after the publication of the storm overflows action plan. So, it probably would be the best time then to cover your query, but I will make sure that I draw this matter to the Minister for Climate Change's attention. As I say, I'm sure she can cover it in that proposed statement, ahead of summer recess.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, can I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change about safety measures on buses? The reason for this is because an 82-year-old constituent of mine was recently travelling on a bus to Blackwood when the driver had to perform an emergency stop due to another motorist's poor driving. My constituent was sat on the first double seat at the front of the bus, and was flung out of her seat as a result of the emergency brake. She slid along the floor before slamming her head at the front of the bus, fracturing a bone in her neck. She's currently recovering at home, following an eight-day stay in the Grange Hospital. All those involved, my constituent included, believe the emergency stop was the correct course of action taken by the driver. However, this incident has highlighted a major safety concern with the first two double seats at the top of the bus. So, I'd appreciate if the Deputy Minister could make a statement about how he is working with bus operators to ensure safety measures are put into place to stop awful incidences like this happening in the future. Thank you so much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear about your constituent and I do hope she is recovering well at home. And, I think, clearly, the experience she had is something that I'm sure the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is aware of, but I will certainly ask him if he is doing any work with bus services. I was on a bus in Cardiff yesterday evening, and there were quite a lot of people standing up, and I was very aware, as the bus was slowing down, that people perhaps weren't in the most secure of positions. So, I'm sure it is something that bus services do look at carefully.

Ken Skates AC: Trefnydd, I would also very much welcome a statement from the Government concerning the success of Wrexham AFC at the weekend. It was a remarkable match. I know you were in attendance. I was in attendance. Many, many thousands—. More than 10,000 fans behaved impeccably at all times, likewise the players, and a special shout out should go to the Wrexham football trust. Trefnydd, we have very little powers in terms of creating any bank holidays to recognise Wrexham AFC's success, but perhaps we could ensure that they could be awarded a St David's award next year to mark the success. And I'd very much welcome quarterly progress updates on the Wrexham Gateway, which the Welsh Government has invested £25 million in, as well as any indication of how the Welsh Government may support Wrexham in celebrating the promotion of its fantastic football team.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Ken. I know you were also in attendance. I don't know if you've had the briefing as an MS that I've had today, to say there were no arrests made at all. So, I think North Wales Police are very proud of that, and I'm certainly very proud of that, and I'm sure Ken will be too, because when you've got 10,000 people it was just sheer joy and it's great that there was no trouble following that. I think it's also good to pay tribute to the Wrexham Supporters Trust, though I do declare an interest that I was a director on the board ahead of my election to this place. Because without that trust we would not have had a football club; it's very clear. And the celebrations that are taking place now, I think, are in recognition of those fans who put themselves forward as part of the trust.
I think the point you make about the St David's awards—. Just last Thursday night, I was very proud to be there with other ministerial colleagues to support the First Minister at his annual St David's awards. And certainly there is a sport award every year, and make no bones about it, I shall certainly be putting forward Wrexham AFC for that award. The point around the Wrexham Gateway is really important, because it's not just about the football club; it's about getting international matches back to Wrexham. We would love to see our national football team, who, of course, have done so well. And can I just give a quick shout out? Wrexham AFC Women were also promoted just three weeks ago as well.

I feel that in the interests of balance, I should say that other football teams are available. [Laughter.]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Obviously.

And I might just comment on Aberystwyth Town on Saturday, ensuring that they avoided relegation from the Welsh premiership as well. Congratulations to them. Now, which football team would you like to mention, Janet Finch-Saunders?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Blackburn Rovers. [Laughter.]

Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd.

Very good.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like a statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on the future of the direct rail service between Llandudno and Manchester Airport. The number of overnight trips taken to our glorious town is set to rise from 440,289 in 2018 to 561,339. However, to achieve this we need to at least maintain current provision. Llandudno is a very large major tourism resort in north Wales, and we have got—I think it was, last week—between nine and 10 trains a day going directly from Llandudno itself to Manchester. This announcement has been made that now you're going to have to get a train from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction and then Llandudno Junction to Manchester. It's nonsensical that we're seeing a demise of services implemented by this Deputy Minister for transport. So, I suppose, really, we need to ask ourselves, those who represent north Wales, what Llandudno has done wrong in terms of—. We should be looking for more train provision, certainly not less, and certainly not one where I have residents arriving in our town who frankly are going to struggle now, having to get another extra train. Thank you. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I absolutely agree that Llandudno is a major tourist spot in north Wales. The Minister for Climate Change and, therefore, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change have got questions next week. It might be worth raising it direct with the Deputy Minister. But one area where I know the Deputy Minister is trying to make some inroads is getting more rail infrastructure in north Wales, so that we can improve rail performance not just in north Wales but right across Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Just keeping the focus on greyhounds, as you know, we had a very lively debate here around banning greyhound racing, and I'm aware that you are looking to consult on that particular issue. So, I was just wondering, in your role as the rural affairs Minister, if you could just give us an update on the timescales involved in the consultation and the next steps. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I haven't got any further information since I spoke in that debate. What I did commit to at that time, and that still is my commitment, is to go out to consultation this year.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, I'd like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership. The UK Government has recently unveiled a new policy that aims to end veteran homelessness in the UK. Thanks to the Right Honourable Johnny Mercer MP, they've guaranteed money to fund a new programme to end this happening in our society and to ensure our most vulnerable veterans are properly looked after. I'd like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister outlining how this Welsh Government will be working with the veterans commissioner and the UK Government to ensure Wales is the best country to be a veteran. Those who have served in our country deserve our support, and I'm sure you'll agree, Minister, that it's crucially important that devolved Governments work with the UK Government on this.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I think we are already ahead of the game, actually, in Wales on that, and I think we do offer a programme to every veteran in relation to that already.

Gareth Davies AS: Could I ask for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services on the north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl, or the lack of a north Denbighshire community hospital in the town, as it's part of the Royal Alexandra? I had the pleasure to visit there over Easter recess last week, in my constituency. I had a tour of the hospital and saw the need there for a new facility to be built. And part of the plans, a decade ago now, that they've been waiting for is also some regeneration work, because the hospital goes back to the late 1800s and some of it has fallen into a state of disrepair, particularly in the basement. So, some of that money that was allocated for north Denbighshire community hospital was also going into the regeneration and the importance of restoring an old building to its former glory, if you like. And the fact of the matter is we've been waiting so long for this to happen. We were in a position, back in 2018-19, where we thought it was going to happen. We saw the plans, and I saw them on a partnership scrutiny committee in Denbighshire council, and yet my residents in Rhyl and Prestatyn are still waiting for a spade in the ground and haven't seen any tangible evidence of any progression in that sense. So, could I have a statement from the health Minister, detailing what discussions she's had with the new members of the board and, indeed, the new chair of the board, and some of the executives in making this idea a reality for my constituents? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I'm sure the Minister for Health and Social Services will be updating Members of the Senedd at regular intervals in relation to her meetings with the new chair and independent members of the board. And I will certainly ask her if there is anything further to update us on the replacement for the Royal Alex, if that can be done at the same time.

I thank the Trefnydd for that statement.

3. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: The 2023-24 Flood Programme

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the 2023-24 flood programme. I call on the Minister to make that statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to announce the publication of the flood and coastal erosion risk management programme for 2023-24. The new programme of works shows our commitment to reducing flooding and coastal erosion risk in Wales. We are continuing to provide record levels of funding to our hard-working risk management authorities despite the incredible pressure upon public sector resources at present.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: In our programme for government, we set ourselves an ambitious target to provide increased flood protection to more than 45,000 homes in Wales. We reiterated this commitment in our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, where we promised to:
'Invest more in flood management and mitigation and plan to respond to the increased risk of flooding.'
And there can be no doubt: this investment is required. The recent reports by the International Panel on Climate Change and the UK Climate Change Committee have reiterated the need for continued investment in mitigation, adaptation and resilience to respond to global warming challenges.
At the start of this Government term, we committed to a three-year allocation of £214 million. Last year, we provided over £71 million in funding to risk management authorities, which, at the time, was our largest ever spend on a flood programme. This year, we have gone even further and will provide more than £75 million. This Government promised sustained levels of investment. We are keeping that promise, and more.
Sadly, this winter provided us with another example of why this sustained investment is paramount. Despite a winter without any named storms impacting Wales, we have still seen homes and communities impacted by flooding. Heavy rain in early January meant some locations received six weeks' worth of rain in just a fortnight. Climate change is causing our weather to become more extreme. In the future, we must be prepared to face longer, heavier bouts of rain on a regular basis. Unfortunately, over 80 properties experienced flooding along with significant transport disruption for our road and rail networks. I know how devastating it is for communities who experience flooding, and, honestly, my thoughts and sympathies are with them as they navigate through the after-effects of that.
We know that the impact of flooding would have been worse were it not for our network of defences and the tireless work of our risk management authorities. That is why we continue to provide record levels of investment, to provide our risk management authorities with the means to construct and maintain the infrastructure we rely on to keep our communities safe from the challenges posed by climate change. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, our sustained investment is producing results. For example, our hard-working local authorities have completed schemes in Llansannan, Valley, Aberdyfi and Porthcawl, to name but a few. This is on top of numerous small-scale works delivered by local authorities across Wales. We estimate that, in the last year, local authority works have benefited over 10,000 properties, reducing the risk to homes and communities from villages to cities, whilst also providing wider benefits to the local economy.
Meanwhile, NRW have also been delivering schemes across Wales. They have completed a £7 million scheme to safeguard the reservoir at Llyn Tegid near Bala, sustaining flood protection to more than 800 properties. Further reservoir safety works completed at Cowbridge and Wydden will maintain protection to 300 properties combined. NRW have also completed works at Llanfair Talhaearn, reducing the risk of flooding to 33 properties in a community that was devastated by flooding in February 2020. NRW’s core programme has also provided flood protection to over 1,000 properties. Improvement works to existing defences across Wales were delivered this year, benefiting locations such as Monmouth, Wentloog and Tenby.
And it is important to remember that our investment is not limited to construction projects. NRW have a responsibility to warn and inform, which is why they continue to invest in modelling, telemetry and flood warning systems. In addition, NRW are continuing to develop future projects in locations such as Cardigan and Porthmadog, and a flood risk strategy for the River Taff. The strategy will be heavily influenced by the lessons learned from storm Dennis in 2020, and will help us plan and identify any future works required. This work is also essential to helping us understand and communicate the risks to our communities, making them much more resilient and prepared.
And, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is this type of future planning that is crucial to delivering an effective flood programme and meeting our commitment to provide increased flood protection to over 45,000 homes. I am therefore pleased that, this year, we are able to provide risk management authorities with over £75 million to reduce flood and coastal risk across Wales. Of that £75 million, £34 million of capital funding has been allocated to our risk management authorities, which will be used to develop and construct flood risk management schemes across Wales. For example, this year, construction will begin in earnest on large-scale NRW schemes in Ammanford and Lliswerry in Newport. The scheme at Ammanford will provide increased flood protection to 200 properties. Meanwhile, the scheme at Lliswerry will reduce the risk to over 800 properties, making it one of the largest schemes ever constructed by NRW.
In addition, we are also providing local authorities with £10 million to develop and construct new schemes, including nearly £1.5 million to deliver property flood resilience measures to the community of Dinas Powys, which was devastated by flooding in 2020. I am also pleased to see sustained demand for our small-scale works grants, with £3.7 million of funding provided to local authorities to deliver solutions to smaller localised flooding problems. And, in accordance with our programme for government commitment to deliver nature-based flood management in all major river catchments, we continue to embed natural flood management as a core part of the work we deliver.
We have recently concluded our three-year natural flood management pilot programme, which installed hundreds of natural measures over 15 projects across Wales. For example, Powys County Council installed 250 leaky dams just in the upper Teme alone. Natural flood management is also being integrated into our core programme and, this year, 22 capital projects included natural flood management measures in their proposals. To further support this work in the short term, we have also opened a new investment programme. The pilot rural investment scheme will further encourage and support natural flood management over the next two years. The learning from this programme will also support in the development of the sustainable farming scheme.
But, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is not just about new projects. This year, we will provide over £41 million in revenue funding, an overall increase of nearly £5 million. Risk management authorities will use these funds to maintain our substantial network of flood defences and to continue their work on awareness raising, flood investigations, warning and informing, and to cover staff costs. Of this revenue, NRW will receive £24.5 million, an increase of £2 million, while the total revenue allocation available to local authorities will also rise to over £5 million. This represents a significant step-up in revenue funding. It follows a recent call from our flood and coastal erosion committee for longer term revenue settlements, and will enable a longer term approach to the maintenance of flood assets, staffing and all other revenue-funded work.
Dirprwy Lywydd, a full breakdown and map of this year's flood and coastal erosion risk management programme will be published on our website. Furthermore, we are making available an interactive map on our DataMapWales website, should members of the public and Senedd Members wish to scrutinise the programme in more detail. Yet again, we are providing record levels of funding to our risk management authorities as we continue to strive to keep our communities safe against the growing risk of climate change. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I believe it is good always to start with the positive—in fact, there are a few positives here. We welcome several points today, including the fact that you will be providing £75 million in funding to risk management authorities, that 22 capital projects include natural flood management measures in their proposals and that you are investing to help with the staffing situation. We know that, in December, the Auditor General for Wales issued a report that found that staff shortages are so severe at local authorities that there's one authority that was unable to submit funding applications for flood risk management schemes and revenue funding because they had an unfilled vacancy.As the auditor has found, in the short term, workforce capacity is the biggest issue facing the flooding sector. The flood and coastal erosion committee's review of resources explained the consequences of insufficient workforce capacity, and these include a lack of sufficient and meaningful engagement with communities; lack of time for RMAs to collaborate effectively with each other and other sectors; slow progress developing the evidence base on the benefits of nature-based solutions, catchment-based approaches and how to adapt to respond to climate change; and a lack of innovation and partnership working to create wider social and economic benefits, and to secure additional external funding for flood risk management schemes. If you think about it, really, it's a false economy if a local authority is not going to fill that vacancy, because of some of the funds that they're missing out on drawing down.
Now, I believe that the flooding sector in Wales understands its own weaknesses, but they do lack human resources to solve these problems. Question 1, Minister: you've explained that around £41 million will be provided in revenue funding and that it can be used to cover staff costs. So, what steps are you taking to ensure that opportunities exist across Wales for individuals to acquire the skills that our authorities desperately require, because, when you see posts going unfilled, it's quite often that there aren't those skills in a particular area? We know that one authority has been unable to apply for funding because of a vacancy, so have you liaised with each RMA in Wales yourself to ensure that they're all in these positions to be able to make important applications? A review published by the Environment Agency as part of the joint England and Wales research programme found that regional flood groups in Wales lack a strategic direction and influence over wider regional decisions such as economic development. The review found that membership often lacked seniority and existing members were often unable to make a corporate commitment. On top of that, there is no Wales-wide forum for senior leaders to discuss flood risk management and drive strategic change. You've highlighted the importance of future planning to delivering an effective flood programme, but what steps will you take to ensure senior ownership of flood risk management across RMAs and that flooding is not treated in some areas as a lower priority?
We know that there are sections of watercourses where the riparian landowner is not even known to the Land Registry. I've had a situation in my own constituency where the riparian landowners themselves didn't know they were riparian landowners. When we had a particular problem in an area, the landowner on one side was quite happy to do his bit, but then there was a large number of householders who just didn't know they were riparian landowners, and they said, 'What's a riparian landowner?' So, how can we actually get this across, that they are responsible for so much of any river frontage?
Worryingly, 61 per cent of low-income renters do not have home contents insurance, and 73 per cent of low-income renters would not be able to meet an unexpected bill of £500. We cannot force, Minister, people to pay for home insurance, but is there a chance that you could run, I don't know, a social media campaign or something, because I know only too well too many constituents who have lost everything in the past, and every time it rains now they live in fear? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. One of the things I've just announced is that we are very happy for grants to be used for staffing resources. I'm not too sure what you mean by 'no opportunity to come together', because, certainly, Rebecca Evans and myself meet with the leadership of every local authority in Wales on a very regular basis. We have a rolling agenda of topics, and certainly climate change, climate resilience, climate adaptation is one of those rolling topics. So, I think there is a forum to raise that, and any local authority leader or chief executive that comes to those meetings is very welcome to do so. We also have officials meeting with officials in the Welsh Local Government Association as well as with every local authority. So, I'm afraid I disagree with that. I think there's every opportunity for people with those kinds of issues to raise them.
There is a skills shortage, there's no doubt, and we are working very hard to try and make sure that we have the right training programmes in place; again, funding through the local authorities really helps with that. In common with many of the professions in the public sector, they've been very impacted by the austerity agenda, I fear, so the training programmes that used to be place in place in local authorities have been impacted by that, and we are working very hard with them to try and put those training programmes back in place.
There are also a number of small grant schemes available for riparian owners and others to take advantage of, and also, of course, we expect the relevant risk management authority to take a view as to the number of properties that can be protected by any particular natural flood management or scheme in question. If you have a specific issue, maybe write to me and tell me where it is, and we can have a look at that.
I'm very clear that this is a very significantly enhanced programme, and it will give local authorities a great deal more to work with in terms of both resilience and planning over the next year. I really want that to work, because, like you, I have met a large number of people who've been impacted by floods, and it is absolutely devastating. So, I'm very pleased that we've been able to protect over 10,000 properties, and we will continue to do so with this programme.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister, for this statement. This is so important, and it will only become more crucial for us to get to grips with the risks posed by climate change to our communities as the planetary battle that we're in with the climate emergency intensifies. The actions that we take now will determine how safe our communities are in the years to come. This flood programme presents a significant opportunity for us to change things, to protect, to prioritise people's safety and the resilience of habitats in the way that we live. So, I would commend the Welsh Government for its ongoing efforts in addressing this issue and for continuing to allocate significant funds towards the flood programme.
As you’ve said, much of the ongoing work to address the impact of flooding was made possible through the co-operation agreement. I’m eager to see that we continue working with the Welsh Government to ensure that Wales is equipped to respond to the challenges facing the communities we represent, but on this point, as well as commending the Welsh Government, I would commend the team behind the co-operation agreement in all of this, because there aren’t many issues that I can think of that would be more important than this to our communities, particularly the people who are most affected.
There’s one aspect that I would firstly like to press you on specifically, please, Minister. When we talk about flooding, so often we talk about buildings, about infrastructure, roads being closed, bridges becoming impassable. Those things are hugely important—the water damage that’s done to people’s homes has such an effect—but it doesn’t tell the whole story. Because the most stubborn stains that are left when the waters recede can be psychological. People’s dreams can become waterlogged; they can become overcome with these panicked thoughts about what’s going to happen next time it rains heavily. I’m particularly concerned about the emotional toll that is felt by children whose homes have been flooded. I know that we’ve talked about this before when I’ve raised it in the Senedd. Because children across Wales feel truly terrified every time it rains heavily, because they’ve been through a kind of trauma.
I press the Government to tell us more, please, about how it can ensure that there is public confidence in flood prevention measures. How will the flood programme ensure that communities are involved in the planning and implementation of these measures to mitigate the risks of flooding, but to make sure that they have that sense of reassurance? So, if you could tell us more about that, I’d be very grateful, please. Further, a number of my constituents—and, I know, constituents in regions across Wales—have raised concerns about the surveillance of flood prevention measures like culverts, to ensure effective monitoring. I’d like to ask you how the Government plans to address those concerns, please.
Finally, flood defence construction can be carbon intensive. It’s essential, of course—as I know that you’ve pointed out, too—that funding is also spent on green flood defences. As we adapt the way that we work and live, the environmental impact of everything that we do will have to be a central consideration, so how will the Government consider this with flood prevention, please? How will you ensure that the flood programme includes funding for these green prevention and defence measures when it comes to addressing this?
This flood programme presents a critical opportunity to change things. I'd just reiterate, please, the urgent need to give significant consideration to the psychological impact of flooding on communities and individuals, to address concerns about the surveillance of flood prevention measures, and to invest in green defence measures as well. This is a significant piece of work, and I really do commend the fact that this has come, again, from the Welsh Government through the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. This is one of those things that is going to, I hope, change and improve people’s lives and improve our resilience as communities, so I really do commend what’s happening.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. I think it is a programme that is something to be really proud of and it’s been great to work together to put that programme in place. We’ve also worked very closely with local authorities, risk management authorities across Wales, and with NRW, to get the programme in place, and obviously, it’s based on expert opinion about where the schemes are most needed and where they’ll have the most effect.
We are very committed, and indeed, I’m very pleased to have announced the pilot rural investment scheme, which will encourage and support natural flood management over the next two years. We’ll also be able to feed the learning from that into the sustainable farming scheme, so we’ll be able to spread the learning out, basically. You’ve heard me banging on before, but I’ll do it again: the natural flood scheme at the top of the Tawe has just been transformational. Not only does it protect Swansea—it’s in Mike Hedges’s constituency—and the whole of the lower Tawe valley from flooding, and all of the very heavily populated banks of the Tawe there, businesses as well as homes; actually, it’s seen a biodiversity explosion. It’s lovely, if you go and see it there. If you go and see it in flood, it’s even more amazing. It’s basically marshland, reedbed, wetland, and it has the most extraordinary number of birds and all sorts on it, as well as allowing the river to spill its banks in a much more natural way, protecting all of the properties and developed land downstream. So, you can really see it working in action.
That's what natural flood management is about. But it's also about correcting some of the mistakes of the past. In the past, we've often contained a river by putting hard measures along its banks, and actually that makes the water go faster, and it takes away quite a lot of the biodiversity, which relies on gravel beds, meandering rivers, and so on, to get the real benefit. Those meandering rivers might spread out from their banks a little, but they're not doing it with huge volumes of water that have been channeled deliberately into a smaller surface area. In some areas in Wales, we're actually putting meandering rivers back, where previously they've been culverted, for exactly that reason: you get a double whammy for what you're doing. We've had to work very closely with the landowners on either side of those rivers—mostly farmers. It's a great scheme—you should go down to see it. One of them is in Carmarthen, where putting back the meandering parts of the river has, again, led to an explosion in biodiversity. It has actually also allowed animals to drink in a way they couldn't from a culveted river, in dry spells. And, of course, they've had different levels of tree planting and other things. In some places, it's important that there aren't trees, in others it's important that they're shade for the river. So, it's very specific. These programmes really work, but they're longer term, aren't they, and they deliver other things.
Turning to the issue around the trauma of people who have experienced flooding, I've actually seen that for myself first hand a number of times. Quite often, even if the flood has been sorted out, you can still see marks on the outside of houses and sheds where the water level has come to. Actually, the Dirprwy Lywydd and myself visited one in his constituency—mine water flooding, that was—where the marks on the walls were horrific, weren't they, really, up above your height, never mind mine. You were looking up in the air and you could hardly believe that the water got to that level. The people there were pretty traumatised by it, but actually, interestingly, very few of them asked to leave. What they really wanted was help for the community to come together and become resilient. They wanted counselling for some of the children who were having bad dreams. And then, very specifically, they wanted protections. They wanted to be able to assure their children that it wouldn't happen again. A very large—slightly different in that case, because it was a mine flood—comprehensive engineering scheme has been put in place there to do that and to persuade the people there that they are safe.
And then much of the other stuff that I've announced today, around NRW's flood warning alert and resilience, is about making sure that people don't feel hopeless in the face of a threat, but actually understand what they themselves can do to best protect themselves, their properties and, indeed, their lives and their children. I do think that, if you give people agency in that way, it makes them feel much less helpless and much less likely to be traumatised. That's very much part of that programme to give people agency in the sense that they have something they themselves can do to protect themselves. It's a training and resilience programme, because that kind of resilience and adaptation is going to be more and more necessary as we face this climate emergency.

Mike Hedges AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, I very much welcome the statement today. Unless we find a way to change the weather so that we have less heavy rain, then the problem of flooding will continue. Global warming has led to a change in the weather in Wales, from regular light rain, which I'm sure both you and the Minister remember from your youth, to what we have now, which are long periods that are dry, followed by very heavy rain, which causes flooding. Heavy rain in early January meant that some locations received six weeks' worth of rain in just a fortnight. That's not sustainable. There is a view that all you need to do is to build higher and higher walls. This is not a view I agree with, and I think it's not a view that the Minister agrees with.
I've got three suggestions. The first one is that planning permission should be requested to cover gardens with tarmac and other impervious material. A lot of the problems we're having with flooding is that what used to go into the ground is now running off the ground and finding somewhere else to go. Secondly, more trees and bushes should be planted on hills and mountainsides. And thirdly, that floodplains are created, as we have in Ynysforgan in Swansea, to give water somewhere to go, which the Minister talked about a few moments ago, and also that the rivers are made more bendy, or meander, or whatever the correct word is, as they've also done with the Tawe in Ynystawe and Ynysforgan. From a time when somebody had to come out of their house by boat on their first floor in Park Road, we now have a situation where we're not getting flooding there. It's a lot of really good work. The water has got to go somewhere, and it's better for it to go into a parcel of land where it can help biodiversity than it is for it to go into people's houses.

Julie James AC: Yes, indeed, Mike. I completely agree with all of that, and you just heard me extolling the virtues of the Tawe, and I know you've heard me doing that a number of times.
Actually, there is a prohibition on paving over your front garden; it's just very often not enforced. You know that our colleague, Joyce Watson, has been a champion of this for many years. I am quite happy to write back out again—I have done it a number of times—to planning authorities, to remind them that actually you're not supposed to pave over your front garden, for parking or other purposes, without consent. And the reason for the consent is exactly as you say—that it increases the run-off exponentially, actually, and people often pave over the bit where the stuff coming off the roof should go into a soak-away, so it's just pouring off drives into the gullies. You see it, actually, quite often, in parts of Swansea in my constituency, and I know that Joyce has talked about it many times in her constituency, and anyone who lives in an area that has terraced roads and little parking will see people doing that where they can, and it really does increase the run-off. It's really present and obvious, so to speak, so I'd very happily write back out to planning authorities, reminding them that they can take enforcement action.
And the other thing to say is that plenty of alternatives are available. You can actually make the front area, as it used to be called in my youth, for those terraced houses, parkable on without making it impervious to water. Plenty of other surfaces are available that allow the water to drain through, and that's really important. Actually, those services also allow, then, a haven for wildlife, and you can't find any kind of haven on hard surfaces. So, I will do that as well, Mike.
And then, I already spoke about the remeandering, as it's called. We've got four rivers undergoing that process at the moment, for exactly the reasons that you say. And then the last thing to say is that we do have a couple of projects in Wales where—I've forgotten what it's called—the source of the river has had upland peat bog put back, and actually, that is incredibly absorbent as well. So, the right kind of planting along the river, and particularly at its source, will absorb an enormous amount of water, which will then prevent the flooding. But the sad truth is that we are looking at a very different climate pattern. This last summer was a really good example, where the land completely dried out, and then when it does rain it cannot absorb the water, so it runs off in ever-greater quantities. A lot of people are going to have to change a lot of practices across many, many different sectors of our society in order to accommodate that.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister, for a very positive statement in some regards, and positivity for those locations that you've mentioned in your statement. Unfortunately, not so much for the quayside in Carmarthen and other parts of the town of Carmarthen, which aren't mentioned in your statement today. Just last month, the River Towy burst its banks once again, and those business owners and staff were stuck with the anxiety of wondering whether the river will breach into the buildings. Now, there have been meetings with NRW,there have been meetings with Carmarthenshire County Council, can you tell me and give some reassurance to those business owners on the quay what more can be done, what more can they do, to put forward a case for the need for flood defences, be that on the quayside itself or further upstream on the Towy valley itself? Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Julie James AC: Yes, certainly. Thank you for that. There are a number of schemes in Carmarthen. I would suggest that you look on the website to see all of them. I've got a list here, but I'm trying to read them sideways, unfortunately. The way it works, basically, is that the risk management authority puts forward its priority schemes for its area, what it can manage that year, both in terms of capacity and in terms of need, I suppose—greatest need. And we very much take the advice of the risk management authority in terms of what we flood. It's a conversation between my officials, NRW, and the local authority. So, if you do have businesses in that circumstance and the scheme is not yet included, then I suggest they actually just lobby their local council about the need to accelerate their particular scheme and the number of properties that it would protect. It goes on the cost and the number of properties protected for the cost, effectively. I mean, there are slightly more nuances than that, but that's what I would suggest you do, and that's how the scheme works. The risk management authorities bring forward the schemes.

Finally, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for the important announcement today. I am very pleased that both our parties have been able to work together, and I know constituents are delighted that over £14 million-worth of work will be undertaken in South Wales Central, and many people have already contacted me. For instance, the councillors in Dinas Powys are very relieved to see that funding allocated.
One question I do have is relating to the flood risk strategy for the Taf in particular, which is obviously in its very, very early days, but we are talking about some of the communities that have been told that they are at risk of dying in their homes if similar flooding events are to happen again. Obviously, it's welcome that this work is beginning now, but this is just three years since that devastating night in February 2020. What they're concerned about is that they've been told that there's a process and that it could take up to seven years for any resolution to take place. So, how are we going to support those? Because yes, in some communities they can become resilient; there are things they can do and mitigate risk. But, when you've been told that you could die in your home if we see that extent of flooding again, how are we going to support them, and is there a way to ensure that processes, when it comes to modelling and so on, can happen more quickly in those instances where they've been told that explicit risk, so that we don't always have to follow such a rigid process when even Natural Resources Wales knows that, ultimately, those homes cannot be saved?

Julie James AC: Yes. So, I'm really sorry to hear that people are being told such alarming things. I'm very happy—let's talk about it offline, because I really think we need to have a look at that. Communities at that level of risk really should be having individual assessments for what they should do in the case of severe weather, so let's talk about that separately, because that's not acceptable.

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Progress Update on the Welsh in Education Workforce Plan

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: progress update on the Welsh in education workforce plan. I call on the Minister—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's nearly a year since I published the Welsh in education workforce plan, and today I want to update you on some of the actions that have been taken to date and the actions being taken forward in the coming year.
Members will recall that the plan will be delivered alongside the Welsh in education strategic plans of local authorities, and that it sets out the actions that we are taking with our partners to increase the number of teachers able to teach Welsh as a subject, or who can teach through the medium of Welsh. It also considers how we can develop the Welsh language skills of our education workforce and ensure that our leaders are equipped with the knowledge and skills to develop the Welsh language within our schools.
The delivery of this plan is crucial if we want to realise our vision for a million Welsh speakers and the ambition that was recently set out in the White Paper for the Welsh Language Education Bill. While it will take time to put many of the actions in place, the Welsh Government and our partners have wasted no time in getting started.To increase the number of teachers able to teach Welsh and other subjects through the medium of Welsh, we have changed the ITE entry requirement from grade B to C forGCSE maths and Welsh or English; we have funded a further 20 places for primary teachers who want to convert to secondary schools through the cynllun pontio.
Just before Easter, I opened a second round of the Welsh-medium workforce capacity building grant, and there is a sum of £800,000 in that fund. This enables schools to develop innovative ways of resolving some of their recruitment challenges.
The Open University has expanded its employment-based routes into teaching to include design and technology and computing from September 2023 onwards. The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has established 'Cadw Cyswllt', which promotes opportunities for students in England to return to Wales to prepare to teach. The coleg will also start a mentoring scheme for undergraduate students shortly. These students will be supported by newly qualified teachers to go into teaching. We have also commissioned the Education Workforce Council to undertake a scoping exercise to consider post-16 pathways into teaching. I’m looking forward to receiving that report in due course.

Jeremy Miles AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, as outlined, we are developing a range of interventions to try and increase the number of teachers. However, if we are to increase the overall number of teachers, action needs to be taken not only to increase the number being trained, but also to encourage teachers to remain within the profession. Therefore, today, I am pleased to announce the Welsh in education teachers’ retention bursary. The bursary of £5,000 will be available to teachers who gained qualified teacher status from August 2020 onwards, and who have completed three years of teaching Welsh or through the medium of Welsh in the secondary phase. The bursary will initially be available until autumn 2028 so that we have data to understand whether providing a retention bursary will encourage teachers to enter and remain in the profession.
Turning to the other aims of the plan. There is more to do to increase the number of teaching assistants and support workers able to work through the medium of Welsh, particularly to support our most vulnerable learners. But we have been able to move forward with some actions, including a pilot scheme to provide learners leaving school with a year's placement to become teaching assistants in a cluster of three primary schools in Torfaen. We've funded a number of projects to increase the number of teaching assistants through the capacity grant that I launched last year. I'm also pleased that Cyngor Gwynedd is planning to pilot full-time jobs with some hours as teaching assistants and some hours supporting other services, for example, social care, childcare or play schemes over the summer holidays. The aim is to create a favourable offer, offering a year-round job and 37 hours a week, to appeal to employees with the relevant language skills. We'll be appointing a national Welsh language implementation lead to support the development of Welsh-medium additional learning needs provision and professional learning.
We're continuing to support teachers in English-medium schools to develop their ability to use and teach the language through the sabbatical scheme. We've also funded a national officer to work across the regional consortia, to develop national programmes of professional learning to support practitioners. This work is still at the moment in its infancy, but is bringing the wealth of expertise that we have across Wales together.
You'll recall that, since September, education practitioners can access courses via the National Centre for Learning Welsh for free. I've recently agreed funding for the centre to appoint a national officer to work with the regional consortia, local authorities and sabbatical scheme providers, to deliver a coherent programme for practitioners to learn Welsh.

Jeremy Miles AC: Alongisde this work, there are two other organisations that have a key role in developing our workforce. I have agreed increased funding for CYDAG to support our Welsh-medium schools. I have also agreed to fund a Welsh language lead within the National Academy for Educational Leadership to help with our plans to increase capacity in our workforce and support all leaders to plan the development of Welsh strategically within their schools. This week, we will be publishing a draft resource to support leaders to evaluate their journey to develop the Welsh language in their schools.
To deliver the plan successfully, we must continue this partnership approach. I have established an external implementation group, which includes all of the organisations that have contributed towards driving forward the plan. I'd like to thank the members of the group, the organisations that you represent, and the independent chair, Dr Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, for all your support and your hard work so far. There is still a lot to do, but together, I am confident that we can make a real impact, and I look forward to continuing to work together to deliver the plan and to move towards our Cymraeg 2050 ambition.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr for your statement, Minister. We really welcome this statement today, actually, although I do believe it could even go further still, as it's clear from the last census data that this Government has been going backwards in terms of the Welsh language and, after 25 years in Government, it is good to see this urgent action being taken now. Whilst I wholeheartedly support the statement's aims and announcements today, which had to be done, if this Government is truly serious about gaining those 1 million Welsh speakers, I do have some questions on the practicalities and realities of it. A lot of the concerns that I'd written down this morning, and suggestions, you have actually covered in this statement, which is very welcome.
As you said, the coleg will also shortly be starting a mentoring scheme for the undergraduate students to be supported by newly qualified teachers to go into teaching, which sounds great, but what will the incentive be for newly graduated teachers to join the scheme and add to their already heavy workloads? I have some concerns around this due to numbers being possibly a problem without an incentive to join the mentoring scheme.
Secondly, the Welsh Government wishes to reach the target of 3,100 primary teachers who can teach in the medium of Welsh by 2021; you only reached 2,871. You aimed for 600 secondary school teachers who taught Welsh as a subject, but only reached 391 by that time. The failure to hit these targets is a damaging condemnation of the failures of Welsh in education by this Labour Government to date. Undoubtedly, there is a teacher recruitment and retention crisis in Wales at the moment. So, how can you be sure that these targets that you've announced today—which are welcome—aren't just there to generate the headlines and will actually be met this time? And will you be prepared, Minister, to come back to this Chamber on a more regular basis and keep us updated on that?
And finally, predictably, there are extremely few Welsh-speaking teachers in the parts of Wales that have the fewest Welsh speakers. If these areas are to bolster their Welsh-speaking population, then it's critical that these Welsh-speaking teachers are incentivised to live and work in those communities. And unless I've missed it in the plan, how does this plan actually do that? And if it isn't included, don't you agree it needs to be? So, Minister, how are you and this plan going to incentivise Welsh-speaking teachers to live and work in those communities where there are fewer Welsh speakers? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for her questions in relation to my statement. She's right to say that there are challenges in making sure that we have the numbers of teachers who can teach Welsh and teach through the medium of Welsh. She will also know there are broader challenges, not just in the UK in fact, but internationally, in terms of teacher recruitment. The plan, of course, is a plan that I announced last year, rather than a new plan today, and she will recall, from the discussion we had at the time, that my approach to it has tended to be very pragmatic. So, there are a number of things on which we've worked together with partners, including the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, who've been working on the mentoring scheme, as she referred to in her question. And I think we are all agreed that the focus needs to be on those elements of the plan that evidence tells us are working best. So, if there are aspects that aren't working, we will simply stop doing them, and, if there are aspects that are particularly successful, we'll do more of that.
So, it's very much a spirit of practical delivery that has motivated everyone's work, and I think it's very—. My own perspective on it is there are very creative approaches that the plan lays out. I think we've got to the stage where the challenge is so intense that we need to look at it afresh. You will have seen from my statement that I've changed the qualifications required to go into teaching and so on. So, some of that would have been probably more challenging in another context, but, because of the challenges that we face, we've been keen to be as creative as possible.
I'm not announcing any new targets today, but the point that the Member makes in relation to the local challenges or the local profile of recruitment is absolutely correct. It isn't—. I would go further actually; it's not specific even simply to those areas where there isn't a density of Welsh speakers. It's actually—. It's a complex picture, actually, right across Wales. There are very few areas where you would say securely there is no issue whatsoever. But it's really important that we work with authorities—and actually work at school level as well, but certainly with local authorities—to understand the profile of their local area. And she'll recall from the discussion in this Chamber last year that my intention is to publish, every two years, revised targets, revised performance figures, and that that will be done on a localised basis. So, next year will be the time for publishing that, when we'll be two years into the plan, and we're working with a group of local authorities at the moment to understand the data and how best to capture the data, so that we can have a shared ownership of the challenge, if you like.
But I'm very clear: if there are particularly creative approaches that schools want to be able to take locally to them, they should be enabled to explore those, even when we have to think creatively about how to deliver them. And in fact, the funding, which I mentioned in my statement, of £800,000, is intended to support some of those innovative approaches. And there have been good approaches in terms of schools working together, for example, and that's to be encouraged.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for this afternoon's statement. Clearly, there are many things to be welcomed here, and, certainly, this will be a challenge for us in terms of the ambition of reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, but I'm pleased to see that there is funding available to carry out some trials too. I'm very pleased to see the emphasis on classroom assistants too, because very often we talk of teachers, but they play such a crucial role within our educational institutions, so I'm pleased to see that emphasis. But, clearly, it will be interesting to see what comes out of those trials and pilots, so that we will, hopefully, have models that can be rolled out in other areas that can benefit too.
Clearly, there are challenges in retaining teachers, as well as in recruiting. As I was travelling around schools just last week, headteachers were telling me that one of the greatest challenges that they face is recruitment at the moment, and that people perhaps want to work more flexibly, and so, in Welsh-medium schools specifically, we do need to ensure that things such as this are available. It will be interesting to see what impact that has, and I’m sure you will be very carefully monitoring how these plans work, and in terms of the bursary, and how many people will, hopefully, be attracted as a result of this funding being made available.
Now, clearly, whilst the Welsh in education workforce plan, which was published almost a year ago, was a step in the right direction, certainly, in achieving the Government’s current targets for the education workforce, as we’ve mentioned a number of times, we know that we’re not currently reaching that target of 550 at the moment, that it’s around 250, and that that is extremely challenging. Now, delivering the ambitions of the White Paper, which is even more ambitious, will be more challenging, and it will be interesting to see what the targets are there. Because, if we can’t reach that 550 that we need, what additional plans will be developed to bring about the ambitions of that Bill? And can the Minister provide an update on the numbers training this year, in the current academic year 2022-23, to teach in the Welsh-medium sector, and what do the numbers look like for the teacher training courses that will commence in September 2023?
The Education Workforce Council has published a target of 30 per cent for providers, and they say that:
'It is an expectation from Welsh Government that ITE partnerships work towards an intake of 30% of students preparing to teach through the medium of Welsh.'
But to what extent are providers hitting that target at the moment, and what’s the incentive for them to hit that target of 30 per cent, and what happens if they fail to reach that target year on year? Because, certainly, we can have these targets in place, and if we want to—and I know we want to—reach that target of a million Welsh speakers, then these are challenges that we need to address. And may I also ask, in terms of responsibilities, they do now fall through various providers, with the Government, the education workforce, providers of initial teacher training, the universities, local authorities, the coleg Cymraeg, the canolfan dysgu Cymraeg, all of these agencies: can this lead to a strategy that is quite patchy at times, or is it the intention to have someone as a lead on this?
So, there are a lot of questions there, I’m afraid, Minister. I do think there are a number of things to be welcomed, but, obviously, we will have to see what works, what doesn’t, and, certainly, we want to get the message out there that there is a worthwhile profession there, and that there’s an important contribution made by teachers and classroom assistants that teach across Wales at the moment. But we certainly want to ensure that the profession is attractive, and there are steps to be welcomed here.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for the questions, which are all fair questions. In terms of the bursary, as I said in the statement, the plan is to have the bursary for five years and to see what happens on the ground. If it’s effective, we’ll continue it, of course, but it’s important to see what works in practice, so that’s the plan for that. I’ll write to the Member, if I may, in terms of the figures that will emerge this year, but the trend has been a positive one over the last two years, but I’ll write with the details to the Member on that, and will publish the letter.
In terms of the questions regarding the ambition in the Bill that is described in the White Paper, and how we can tackle that, a lot of the questions that the Member had were about the impact of the Bill and the opportunity that the Bill presents to tackle this. One of the things that it’s important to do, I think, and which is in hand at present, is to understand better what the skills profile of the current workforce is. So, of course more people can speak Welsh than teach through the medium of Welsh in our schools—everyone knows teachers who can speak Welsh who are teaching subjects in English-medium schools. So, that work of understanding the distribution, if you like, of where the skills are and where the workforce is is important in terms of realising the ambitions of the new Bill and encouraging those people who, with perhaps more confidence and more training and perhaps some lessons, could teach through the medium of Welsh, or who could teach Welsh in English-medium schools, even.So, that work is important and that's happening already.
In terms of the role of the partnerships, at present, we are—. We have completed the work, and we're about to make a statement on evaluating how the partnerships are being licensed, if you like, to provide the work that they're doing, and one of the things that we've been working on is ensuring that the provision through the medium of Welsh is stronger. So, that will be a more obvious element. There will be a statement in due course about that in general. But, in terms of the role of the partnerships and the consortia, and Estyn and the educational bodies and other bodies, that is tied in, if you like, with the proposed Bill that we have at present, through the national plan, which will be an opportunity—and this is described in the White Paper, as the Member knows—it will be an opportunity to describe responsibilities in all parts of the system, and that will be pulled together in a national plan that Ministers will publish. That plan will also set out the figures for recruitment targets. So, everything will be drawn together in that. The point is fair. There are responsibilities in various parts of the system at present. The work of the external group has drawn together a lot of the people working in this area, and that's been very useful. I intend to meet with them in June. So, that's how the Bill tackles some of these challenges as well.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Finally, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. There's a great deal to welcome in this statement this afternoon, Minister, but you will be aware of concerns about the recruitment of teachers, particularly in ensuring that our education workforce is from as diverse a background as possible. Very often, Welsh-medium teachers teach in the same school that they were a pupil in, in the same village, with colleagues in very similar situations, and, although this can be a good thing in some ways, it does sometimes mean that there is a lack of real diversity in the workforce. Given this, how is the Welsh Government trying to ensure that our teachers are from a diverse background? Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: We have more than one financial incentive to attract people to the sector from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, but also other communities, and it's possible to combine those incentives with the incentives that are available in terms of teaching through the medium of Welsh. And I know that he has a specific interest in what we can do to attract people back to Wales who have been studying abroad or in England. And that's part of the work that the coleg Cymraeg is doing on our behalf to try and create a relationship with those who have been studying across the border, and encouraging them to return. But the incentive that I mentioned in the statement, which is to sustain people in the profession, is available to those who have been trained in Wales and who perhaps qualify for Iaith Athrawon Yfory as an incentive, but also to those who have been training outside Wales where the workforce council has recognised the QTS that they have. Maybe they haven't trained through the medium of Welsh, but they now work in Wales and teach through the medium of Welsh—they are also eligible for that incentive. So, I hope that that provides some assurance to the Member.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: The National Diagnostic Strategy

We'll move now to item 5, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the national diagnostic strategy, and I call on the Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diagnostics are tests or procedures that are used to identify a patient’s disease or condition. Finding out what is wrong with a patient is vital to treating them. Prompt diagnosis can save lives, saves time and money, and can improve patient outcomes. Diagnostics also have an important part to play in preventative health by detecting disease and illness before major symptoms develop. Diagnostics are often subdivided into broad categories that reflect their commonalities. Examples include imaging, such as x-rays, CT, MRI and PET scans; pathology, such as analysis of blood, urine or tissue biopsies; and endoscopy.
Of approximately 660,000 people on waiting lists in the Welsh NHS, it's anticipated that some 85 per cent will require at least one diagnostic test to help inform their clinical management, with around 30,000 waiting for identified tests. As such, prioritising diagnostics as a key component of our health system is imperative to providing our population with appropriate care.
We know that diagnostics play an important role in identifying medical conditions in Wales, which is why, unlike England, we include diagnostic waits in our waiting list figures, and these account for around 6 per cent of our overall waiting list numbers.
It’s important to note that, although today we are publishing a strategy for diagnostics, we already have a number of well-developed plans that are already delivering for certain types of diagnostic specialisms. We have national programmes for imaging, pathology, endoscopy, healthcare science and genomics that collectively cover most diagnostic techniques. These have been providing leadership and resource to the development of these key areas, such as maintaining up-to-date equipment and training of the professional workforce required to conduct these tests.
Over the past four years, we have invested over £55 million for equipment and to provide updates and replacement, and since 2016, we've increased the number of histopathologists by 14 per cent, clinical radiology staff by 16 per cent, and diagnostic radiographer training places have increased by 34 per cent. But we're acutely aware of the impact caused by the pandemic and the need to go further to help recover these essential services and ensure any new intervention sets the foundation for our vision of what we will require in the years to come.
I must make it clear that the complexity and scale of this issue is not trivial. To deliver safe and effective services will require a careful balance between investment in equipment, infrastructure and facilities, adequate numbers of appropriately qualified personnel, and maximising the use of our resources through clinical pathway redesign. It is with this in mind that we are today committing to a strategy that pulls together our historical ambitions under a single governance structure to develop rapid and impactful progress.
In April 2022, I launched the transforming and modernising planned care and reducing NHS waiting lists plan for the NHS in Wales. This plan outlines recovery and transformation objectives for planned care in Wales, to reduce waiting times and move towards sustainable elective and diagnostic services by 2026. I am today announcing the new diagnostics recovery and transformation strategy, which was a key objective of the plan launched last year. It aims to improve access to diagnostic tests, improve patient outcomes, and support the development of our diagnostic workforce across NHS Wales. This strategy sets out how we will create additional capacity, move to a combined approach for diagnostic tests, and provides leadership through a national diagnostics programme.
The recent purchase of the former British Airways buildings in Llantrisant, close to the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, will enable the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board to develop a regional service for the south-east to deliver diagnostics away from traditional hospital settings, increasing access for patients, bringing down waiting lists, and ensuring that our hospitals have the capacity to help those who require urgent care. We are also exploring using the site to accommodate a regional endoscopy unit, with two theatres that can be utilised as a clinical skills training academy.
The strategy outlines a combined approach to align immediate interventions with future demand predictions to facilitate long-term sustainable transformation.

Eluned Morgan AC: To deliver transformation, the strategy has a keen focus on the multi-professional diagnostic workforce in NHS Wales—for example, the 7,080 healthcare scientists who are skilled at developing, trialling and evaluating new techniques and ways of working. Health Education and Improvement Wales, HEIW, are developing a diagnostics workforce plan to inform the training pipeline. This will include advanced practice roles such as reporting biomedical scientists and radiographers, and support for new roles, such as consultant clinical scientists, that will be integral to service redesign.
The development of a new state-of-the-art genomics facility at Cardiff Edge life sciences park will physically bring together partner organisations that deliver services and research, as well as the supporting infrastructure, to create an environment that promotes innovation and provides opportunities for collaboration with industry.
In imaging, the expansion of digital fixed positron emission tomography, or PET,scanning capacity will allow us to perform more scans with higher accuracy and reliability than the existing analogue and mobile scanners.
In north Wales, we have rolled out digital cellular pathology, enabling faster reporting times and reducing the time taken for lymphoma diagnosis. The flexibility that comes with working digitally has supported the recruitment of consultant pathologists, with an additional nine working across Betsi Cadwaladr.
The diagnostics transformation programme will develop an implementation plan that builds on these initiatives to design better services, which will be improving patient health outcomes while reducing inequalities across Wales. By bringing together all of the national diagnostic programmes under one clear strategic vision, and with leadership from a clinically led national diagnostics board in partnership with health boards, we will maximise the use of available resources and provide joint focus on key priorities, addressing previously described ambitions. This includes pursuing the creation of national and regional models for fragile services, such as pathology, to drive throughput and achieve full accreditation of services to enhance patient safety.
Finally, we are expediting transformation in diagnostic service models to improve and innovate in the way that we treat patients, supporting and encouraging collaboration between NHS bodies, Government, academia, the third sector and industry. Today sees the launch of a new trial evaluating the benefits of using liquid biopsy diagnostic technology for people with suspected lung cancer. The study, involving over 1,200 patients, will look at how the use of a less-invasive blood test can reduce the time between diagnosis and treatment.
In conclusion, I recognise that timely access to diagnostic testing is crucial for patient outcomes, and that is why we are launching this strategy today. This strategy will create modern and sustainable diagnostic services in NHS Wales and will improve the health and well-being of people in Wales. Thank you very much.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for the statement today and the advance copy, of course, as well? Anything that can help improve diagnostic services and, ultimately, bring down waiting times will certainly be supported by me and the Welsh Conservatives. I think, in terms of bringing down waiting times, this has to be, of course, the top priority for the Government. Sometimes, I think the Government, over the last couple of years, has focused on other areas that I don't believe should have been prioritised as they have been. This should be the top priority for the Government, so, in that sense, I would have liked this to have come a little bit sooner, of course.
So, thank you for your plan, announced this week, Minister. A couple of the things I picked up on: in regard to data—so important. In the health committee, we're constantly hearing from witnesses about the lack of data—the lack of data available—and data is so important in order to inform decisions and Government policy. I see it mentioned a number of times in the document, and I suppose the question is: are you suggesting, perhaps, that data, and having that data, hasn't been available previously as it should be? Is that why it's forming a priority in your plan?
There's a lot I can agree on in the plan. There are some things on which I just think, 'Okay.' There's one point here, this is in the nine themes of focus:
'Use research to ask important questions and improve outcomes.'
So, there's an aspect here about there being some very simple, very obvious statements in the plan, which I just question: why are they in there if they're so straightforward and simple? Is it because Government isn't doing these things at the moment? There's a point here about, 'have more trusted partnerships'. Of course, that's great, to have more trusted partnerships. Has the Welsh Government not had enough trusted partnerships previously?
This is the transformation plan for the next two years, so I wonder if we can expect anything more detailed, a more detailed plan coming forward as a result, or, just to clarify, is this the overarching plan that will sit ahead of us and we're not to expect any further detail ahead?
What, of course, was a big concern to us all is that drop of 40,000 in cancer hospital admissions during the course of the pandemic. Indeed, 1.3 million appointments and over 50,000 operations were cancelled between April 2020 and September 2021. We understand why, of course, and we understand why a lot of diagnostic services were paused and stopped. We understand why. That was happening across the UK and across the world, but I wonder, Minister, if there is any sense that you have of what lessons could be learned in terms of future pandemics, perhaps. A big question, I know, but some early thoughts and considerations that you might have in that regard.
Just how many more appointments are being missed right now? How many appointments are being missed now? I've heard so many people—. One of the biggest issues in my postbag, as it will be for most Members, is people struggling to access a GP in a timely manner. Now, given the majority of first out-patient appointments are triggered in response to a request from a GP or other health professional in primary and community care to help with diagnostics, is it fair to say this inability to see a doctor is building in a significant delay into the diagnostic pathway? I notice in your plan you talk about increased diagnostic specialists. That's good, but that's not going to help, of course, if people can't be referred to them by their GP. So, how is the Welsh Government ensuring we've got more GPs to see more patients in a more timely manner in order to resolve the issue I've just outlined? I would suggest taking a look, of course, at the Welsh Conservatives' GP access plan.
I'm pleased to see a lot of mention about diagnostic hubs in your plan, Minister. We've heard a lot of quite positive outcomes in terms of the diagnostic hubs. They make a lot of sense, I'm pleased to see them in the plan and perhaps the Minister could outline where we're atwith that. I think we have five in the seven health board areas, but how many more can we expect to see and when is it we can expect them by? But I notice them in the plan, which is good to see.
Finally, just to raise the NHS app, we've had some information, I think, in a written statement last week on that. We called for that, as Welsh Conservatives, as part of our NHS tech bundle. I think this is really important as well, but, in regards to your statement today and diagnostic services, can you give us a sense of whether the diagnostic systems will tap into the app and allow patients to have access to records and updates through it in terms of their diagnostics journey, as well? Thanks, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Russell. Thank you. I'd like to make it absolutely clear that we haven't been sitting around twiddling our thumbs for the past couple of years since the pandemic started. This is a strategy that's bringing together a whole load of national programmes that are and were already under way, including imaging, genomics, pathology, healthcare in science and endoscopy. So, what we're trying to do, by pulling all of these together—and you asked about data. If we integrate the data relevant to all of those different pathways onto one platform, then you're getting better economies of scale, you're getting different diagnoses being able to be compared with each other, making sure that those are sent down the appropriate pathway. So, data is important, but putting that data onto a single pathway despite having all of these national plans in place is going to be a key change in future.
This is the overarching plan, but the detailed work in terms of making sure that this is delivered—. I don’t intend to bring that back to the Senedd time and again, because I’ve appointed a national diagnostic board, which is going to be led by the deputy chief executive officer of the NHS in Wales, bringing in those experts from the different specialist areas, to make sure that we stick and we deliver on this plan, because it is, as you say, crucial to the delivery of those reductions in the waiting times.
You mentioned that there were good reasons for cancelling so many operations during the COVID pandemic; we’re still on a period of catch-up. One of the things that we’re trying to do here is not just to reconfigure services, through, for example, streamlining the pathways, making sure that, when appropriate, people go straight to test, making sure that we have regional centres. And yes, you talk a lot about your hubs, and there’s a hub here coming in Llantrisant. The whole point of this is that we can keep them away from the urgent centres, so the urgent work will carry on and won’t knock out the diagnostics that happens. It’s not easy to do that. If you don’t have a huge population base in big cities, like they do in parts of England—. We’ve kind of got two big population centres in Cardiff and Swansea, where you have more than one hospital in a particular area, where you can separate work from urgent work. But that’s why these new stand-alone diagnostic centres, I think, will be helpful.
In terms of getting access, of course, you’ve been hearing, I’m sure, about the issues in relation to getting GP access in England. We’ve changed the contracts here in Wales. Those have been voluntary, for example, up until April, in terms of the 8 a.m. bottleneck. That’s now a part and an expectation of the new contract that started in April, so obviously, we’ll want to be policing that to make sure that people are implementing that in full and respecting those contracts. There are rapid diagnostic centres in, I think, every health board—maybe not Powys—already, so what we’re talking about here is a different proposal, but of course, all of that will be fed into this overarching strategy.
When it comes to the apps—and you’ll see that we’re moving ahead with that—what’s likely to happen with the apps is that we will just keep building on the app, so that things will be switched on as we move ahead with the app. There is a platform where we can keep adding things. There will be an expectation for patients to be able to see their records. Certainly they’ll be able to see, hopefully, the GP records. To what extent they’ll be able to see secondary care records, we’ll have to work all that out. Obviously, there’s a lot of information and privacy issues that we have to also make sure that we’ve ironed out as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister for her statement. Without doubt, the Minister is right in emphasising the need for early diagnosis. The earlier the diagnosis, the greater the hope of having successful treatment. It saves lives; it improves quality of life, too. As the Minister said, some half a million people are on waiting lists already, and they will need some sort of diagnostic test, and there are more and more people being added to that list every day. We must also bear in mind that, if we look at the latest waiting figures, the numbers waiting for therapeutics and diagnostics have increased. So, it's clear that there is work to be done in order to increase capacity, to provide early diagnosis to more people. I'm pleased that there is a new strategy that has been developed; I welcome that announcement. We of course need to ask why didn't we have a strategy before now, but we will look forward. The objectives set are ones that we can all welcome—the need to increase capacity and to provide clear leadership at a national level in delivering diagnostic testing, and so on.
I have some three questions. Given that we're not adding to the momentum of bringing these figures down—the figures have been increasing—how is the Minister going to work with the health boards in order to plan capacity growth in a way that will lead to early outcomes for patients? Secondly, I'd like to hear more from the Minister on the work that will be done to develop the sustainable workforce that will be needed to deliver a strategy of this kind. Without a workforce, there is no diagnostics plan or any other plan within the NHS. So, I would appreciate more detail on that. And finally, I'm eager to have a slightly clearer picture from the Minister than we've had to date on how diagnostic services will be developed in a way that makes them accessible to people wherever they are in Wales. I am aware of concerns in north Ceredigion, for example, and more broadly across mid Wales, that the emergency diagnostic centre in Hywel Dda is down in Llanelli, which is quite a distance from them. We do need to think carefully about the geographical distribution of the provision that's going to be developed under this strategy. I would welcome some comments from the Minister that can give hope to those people who are in areas where they feel that services are being developed a long way from them that the Minister is at least aware of those concerns.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. We are very aware that there are a great many people who are waiting for treatment in the NHS, and it is true that more people are joining the waiting lists, but of course there are more of them leaving the waiting lists at present. So, at least that is a move in the right direction.
Why haven't we done this before now? Well, because we've been focusing on those individual programmes—endoscopy, pathology and so forth. So it's not as if no work has been done. A lot of that has already been done. But what we're doing now is bringing everything together. As you said, the important thing is that we plan growth together so that things aren't seen in isolation in the future but that they can feed off each other. And to ensure that that growth and that progress is done in the right way, there will be representatives on the board who will be involved in this strategy. There will be representation from the different categories, in terms of the specialisations, but also from the health boards. And there will be an expectation for them to collaborate, because obviously we're in a period of great shortages, and we're in a period where it will be difficult for us to have more than three of these organisations. So, we will need to recognise that we will need help for people to find their ways to these centres, because it won't be possible to have a centre in every part of Wales. But, with these specialist centres, I think we're in a position now where people are willing to travel a little bit further if it will accelerate the time that it takes for them to get their medical intervention.
In terms of the workforce plan, HEIW is already working on that, and so that's an integral part of the strategy, and we would expect to see that in due course.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for your statement, Minister. I strongly welcome this good use of scarce resources. These are very expensive bits of kit, and therefore making them available on a regional basis seems to me an entirely rational way of doing things. I wonder if you could just confirm if this regional service will be for Cwm Taf Morgannwg, Aneurin Bevan and Cardiff and Vale, or does it include Swansea Bay as well? What is your proposal around that?
It seems to me that it's really, really important for patients to know whether they've got a serious problem or not, because if they haven't then they can stop worrying, and if they have, then we can quickly find out what we can do to sort it out. Could you just explain the timescale on when you think Cwm Taf Morgannwg, the regional service in Llantrisant, will be able to go live, because I appreciate you've got to change the building that you've just acquired, and also when you think you might know whether you can get the money together for a regional endoscopy unit on the same site?
Lastly, just in line with the question from Rhun ap Iorwerth, will transport be available for my constituents who have no access to a car?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jenny. I think one of the most exciting things about this programme is actually the ability for us to look to the future, where things may change pretty rapidly in this area. One of the things I've been really concerned about—. As you mentioned, this kit is really expensive, so the last thing I want to do is to invest in a whole lot of capital equipment that we find will become a stranded asset in a few years' time. Last Thursday, I went on a visit to Cardiff university hospital, where there are some genius women working on liquid biopsy tests. What happens is they take a sample of your blood and they can analyse that genomically and tell whether you've got cancer and tell what type of cancer, and then they can adjust what kind of medicine they give you in response to the precise cancer that you have. So, we're getting into real precision technology here. Obviously, that's far less intervention than using huge equipment where you have to go into machines and all kinds of things. I'm really keen to make sure that, whatever we do, we're keeping one eye on the future and what is going to be best clinically for the public.
In terms of the regional services, we expect that the Cwm Taf one will cover the south-east Wales footprint, so that will include Cardiff and Cwm Taf and Aneurin Bevan. We're proposing another one, then, for west Wales, and obviously there will be another one in north Wales. That's the kind of configuration. I think it is essential that we understand that you have to do a hell of a lot of tests to find the 5 per cent of people who may suffer. In order to find the 5 per cent of people who may have cancer, you have to test the other 95 per cent of people. This is a lot of tests, and obviously while you're waiting that is a really, really concerning and troubling time. If we can reduce the demand on the service, through, for example, using blood tests instead of expensive tests, then obviously that would be a good way to go. But the science is still developing in that area. So, we've just got to be aware that we may need to shift direction quickly as the science develops.
On Cwm Taf Morgannwg, I'm hoping that we're going to be getting somewhere by the end of this year, which is very, very ambitious. That's where I'd like to be. The endoscopy part of it, I think, will come later, but certainly, on the broader diagnostics, I'm pushing them very hard to see how quickly we can get that in place, ideally by the end of this year. There will be a challenge in relation to transport. You know how strapped not just public transport at the moment is, but also the health service, so I'm afraid I won't be able to make a commitment in relation to that.

And finally, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, new innovations like the liquid biopsies you highlighted are welcome news. Anything we can do to reduce pain and suffering while at the same time cutting down diagnostic waits is to be applauded. Are you concerned that we will once again see pockets of excellence but that the reality in most health boards will be continuing long waits for diagnostics? We have discussed in the past innovations such as FibroScan, which is hailed as transformational in liver care, yet availability is not universal. What steps are you taking to ensure that all these innovative diagnostic techniques are available to every Welsh patient who needs them? For example, dynamic contrast-enhanced magnetic resonance imaging has revolutionised prostate cancer diagnoses, but is not universally available. Finally, Minister, last week, Swansea Bay health board told me of their plans to expand blood tests from a three-day week service to a four-day week one. Their average waiting time for results across all sites is 13 working days. Do you think this is acceptable, and what steps can you take to speed up the process? Diolch yn fawr.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. You're quite right; there are always going to be pockets of excellence, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because if you have pockets of excellence you can attract key and expert workers to those places. So, I'm not going to apologise for developing three regional diagnostic centres that I hope will attract some excellent workers to those facilities. What we've got to do, though, is to make sure that the board that will be monitoring this understand their responsibility to monitor, to make sure that there's no geographical hindrance for those people, and that it's not effectively discriminatory on the basis of geography. But some boards perform better than others, and I think part of my role is to keep their feet to the fire.
Just in terms of the blood service, three days a week is not good enough, frankly. I want seven days a week in this area. I want seven days a week. If we're spending money on expensive kit, I want it to be used for 24 hours a day. And the limitation, I'm expecting, in terms of people and the numbers of people—so that's why we have to get this training aspect of the strategy absolutely right. But, actually, I think we can be a little bit creative as well. So, for example, as we digitise some of these results, there's no reason why we can't send the results, as is already being done, to be monitored and analysed overnight to Australia, who are awake, and they can send it back. So, that's already being done. What I'd like to see is a lot more of that, so creativity being used so that we don't do things in the way that we always have done. So, three days a week is not nearly good enough for me, no.

Thank you, Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Shared Prosperity and Levelling Up

Item 6 is a statement by the Minister for Economy: shared prosperity and levelling up. I call on the Minister for Economy—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd.
I am providing Members today with an update on our current understanding of the UK Government’s shared prosperity and levelling-up funds, and their impact on the economy and skills in Wales.
For many years, ministerial colleagues and I have warned of the danger to our economy from the UK Government pressing ahead with an approach to these EU replacement funds that short-changes Wales, that dismisses the needs of our stakeholders, and that disregards an economic landscape shaped by more than 20 years of devolution. And let's remind ourselves that that's devolution endorsed in two referenda in Wales and multiple democratic elections.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it is with deep regret that the consequences that we had warned of are now playing out across our economy. With replacement EU funding such as it is, not only does the shared prosperity fund leave Wales over £1.1 billion worse off compared to EU structural and rural funds, but the UK Government has pressed ahead with an approach that bypasses both the Welsh Government and scrutiny by the Senedd; it excludes key growth sectors and partners including universities, colleges and the voluntary sector; it prevents high-impact strategic projects; and it puts unacceptable demands upon our local authorities.
The replacement funds are smaller, less flexible and narrower in scope than the EU funding that they claimed to replace. In the existing round of EU programmes, £380 million was invested in research, development and innovation. That supported expansions of research facilities and major collaborations between business and academia. The shared prosperity fund does not even have a research, development and innovation strand within its investment priorities. This is directly resulting in major job losses and the closure of key projects in areas such as decarbonisation, renewable energy and industrial skills. There are around 1,000 imminent job losses across Welsh universities and scaled-back research, development and innovation opportunities for Welsh businesses as a direct result of UK Governments choices. On top of this, we're seeing job losses in the third sector and the closure of community employability programmes across Wales that provided real expertise in helping vulnerable people progress into employment and training. Dirprwy Lywydd, these are the consequences of Wales having less say over less money, the consequences of broken manifesto pledges by the current UK Government.

Vaughan Gething AC: The Welsh Government has been denied any access to the shared prosperity fund for previously EU-funded national programmes, like Business Wales, apprenticeships and the Development Bank of Wales. That has meant extraordinarily difficult choices for our budget, given the pressures that are already upon it and the reality of a real-terms reduction in the Welsh Government budget. All of this would have been avoided if the UK Government had respected devolution and allowed us to manage full replacement funding through our framework for regional investment in Wales. That model was co-produced with stakeholders here in Wales and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for this very purpose. It was supported by a public consultation and overseen by a representative steering group, chaired by Huw Irranca-Davies.
What the UK Government is doing, by using the powers in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, isn't to extend devolution, as some have hilariously claimed; local authorities had no role or say in the design of the fund. They have simply been landed with administering it locally against a backdrop of chaos and impossible planning and spending deadlines. The funding for the 2022-23 financial year was only received in January 2023, and the UK Government withheld £15 million of that allocation due to the entirely foreseeable delivery problems with their adult numeracy scheme, Multiply. Not only is Multiply poorly designed, it is yet another unacceptable assault on our devolution settlement. It is too narrow in focus and it risks duplicating provision here in Wales. It top-slices replacement EU funds to support a UK Government agenda, designed and delivered in and by Whitehall, in an area that is plainly devolved. And, of course, it denies us funding to support strategic priorities like Business Wales, SMART Cymru and our apprenticeship programme.
We are particularly concerned that the UK Government has created an incoherent approach for people and businesses who want to access the shared prosperity fund. Some projects and grants are on offer in some parts of Wales but not others, with no logic to explain why that is. This, again, is the result of a botched approach that fragments the funding landscape here in Wales. It splinters established ways of regional working and passes responsibility to local authorities to deal with the consequences. The picture with the competitive levelling-up fund is equally dispiriting. Local authorities, who are already under huge strain delivering the shared prosperity fund, have spent huge amounts of their time in developing project bids, the vast majority of which have been rejected by the UK Government. Of 43 bids in the last round of the levelling-up fund, only 11 were approved. And there are five local authorities in Wales: Flintshire, Merthyr Tydfil, Monmouthshire, Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan, who have received absolutely nothing from the first two rounds of the levelling-up fund. Like the shared prosperity fund, this is yet another scheme that has been beset by delays and has loaded extra pressure on to local government and driven up costs during a period of soaring inflation. With just 20 per cent of the levelling-up fund remaining for next year’s final round and all capital projects having to be completed by the end of 2024, the potential for what’s left of this fund is limited at best.
The levelling-up and shared prosperity funds are not multi-annual funds like the EU programmes were. The annual allocations that the UK Government’s approach provides lead to short-term spending timescales and risk poor value end-of-year spending or money not being spent at all. Instead of the security of multi-annual programmes that were previously on offer, we have the limited assurance and partial funding provided by the spending review settlement for three years. Sadly, due to delays and mismanagement from the UK Government, only around 18 months of actual delivery will end up taking place.
I am discussing at a regional level the impact that these funds are now having on the broader missions that our economic regions are pursuing. Councillors across the political spectrum have raised significant frustrations about the lost opportunities that these UK choices present. I’m keen to work with each region to understand the reality of the current picture, to look at how we can work together to try to overcome the damage where possible, and to support shared priorities.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we have seen what happens when a UK Government muscles into devolved areas without consent or any form of meaningful partnership. Comparisons should be made with the way that we workedpragmatically together on establishing two free ports for Wales that should help to serve as a positive example for future inter-governmental work.
We can't undo the consequences of broken promises and the approach that the UK Government has taken to these funds. However, we can set out a vision for the next era of regional development in Wales that repairs the damage and harnesses our ongoing work with the OECD to integrate international best practice within Welsh regional development. Instead of the small, short-term approach of the UK Government, it is imperative that we create a more prosperous and inclusive approach to the economy with better jobs, collaboration with local government, businesses, universities, and local communities. We will prioritise innovation, entrepreneurship, decarbonisation and developing skills for the future.
Our model looks much more like the successful approaches taken in other nations and very different to a UK approach that has drawn consistent criticism from independent voices, including House of Commons select committees and the Institute for Government. Dirprwy Lywydd, as these warnings come to fruition and we see the price that Wales is paying with lost jobs, projects and opportunities, we call again for the UK Government to end this argument, to return the funding and the decision-making powers where they belong: in this Welsh Government and in this Senedd. That will continue to be our call on behalf of the people of Wales.
I’ll leave it there. I’m happy to take questions and comments from Members, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Paul Davies AC: As Members will be aware, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee is holding an inquiry into post-EU regional development funding, building on the recent Finance Committee inquiry. In fact, we’ve recently closed our consultation on this particular topic, and so, this statement will certainly contribute to that inquiry, and I look forward to welcoming the Minister to the committee in due course.
Of course, I don’t want to pre-empt the outcomes of that inquiry, but given that the Minister has brought forward this statement today, it’s a good opportunity to have the Minister respond to some questions on levelling up and, indeed, the shared prosperity fund. Now, the Minister knows my view that, if the funds are to be delivered effectively, then collaboration is absolutely essential. We’ve seen the benefits that effective inter-governmental relations can have. Today’s statement highlights the free-port programme as an example, and so I’m hopeful that a more constructive way forward can be found in the future.
Today’s statement tells us that the Welsh Government has already worked intensively with the OECD and other partners to create the strongest possible model for Wales in terms of a post-EU investment programme, and it would be helpful to all Members if the Welsh Government could tell us more about this work and provide that information so that we can see that for ourselves.
Now, the Minister tells us that there are around 1,000 imminent job losses across Welsh universities, scaled-back research and development opportunities, job losses in the third sector and the closure of community employability programmes across Wales as a result of the shared prosperity fund, and it's crucial that we can see the evidence of these claims; therefore, perhaps the Minister will agree to publish any economic impact assessments that the Welsh Government has made of the shared prosperity fund so that we can all see exactly what impact the Welsh Government believes the fund has had on economic growth and jobs here in Wales. Today's statement also tells us that the shared prosperity fund will mean tough decisions for Business Wales, apprenticeships and the development bank, and perhaps he can tell us exactly what he means in terms of those tough decisions and what it means for the Welsh budget.
Now, the Minister refers to the work of the strategic forum for regional investment, which is chaired by the Member for Ogmore. As I understand it, these meetings have provided a platform for local government and other sectors to exchange information about the progress of the shared prosperity fund, so I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us a little bit more about the work of the forum this year and the outcomes that have come from any of its meetings. The strategic forum for regional investment is a useful way to bring together local government to share information on some of the challenges and opportunities that the shared prosperity fund offers, and I'm keen to find out more about some of the lessons that could be learnt for the future to maximise the impact of the funds.
Now, today's statement refers to the Multiply programme, and one of the themes that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee will be exploring in its inquiry is the potential barriers and opportunities in relation to delivering this programme. I understand that there have been ongoing discussions with the UK Government about the need for flexibility with funding for the Multiply programme, and we certainly need to ensure that funds aren't underspent. So, perhaps the Minister could provide us with an update on the specific discussions he's had with UK Government Ministers, as well as any views that he has received from local authorities, about the Multiply programme.
Moving on, Dirprwy Lywydd, to the levelling-up agenda, I agree that local authorities have worked hard to develop bids, and I'm pleased to see investment reaching large parts of Wales. As I've said before, the levelling-up agenda should be locally led, with local authorities playing a direct role in delivering that investment. The Minister will be aware of the recent 'Levelling Up Locally' inquiry by the Local Government Association in England, which offers some ideas on how to create the conditions for levelling-up locally, as well as bridging the gap between local and national priorities. I'd be grateful if he could tell us the Welsh Government's view on those findings and how he feels that report can contribute to improving the levelling-up programme.
Therefore, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank the Minister for his statement and say that I look forward to discussing these matters further with him and his officials as part of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's inquiry into post-EU regional development funding? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his comments and questions. It's good to welcome Paul Davies back to the Chamber, and I look forward to engaging with him in the Chamber and, indeed, in the committee. I particularly look forward to the committee inquiry, where we can provide more detail on a number of the questions that he has asked, but I'll provide some initial responses today.
It's undeniable that there is less money available in the shared prosperity fund, which was supposed to replace—. And, of course, we were promised that the replacement funds would not leave Wales a single penny worse off. Well, actually, Wales is 110 billion pennies worse off because of the betrayal when it comes to replacement funding. I also understand that there are still some fringe commentators—not Paul Davies, to be fair, but fringe commentators—making brazenly dishonest claims that there is more money available, or the same money available, when that plainly isn't true. There are even some people who have accused Welsh Labour Ministers of lying in the Senedd every time we remind people of the practical reality.
I say this because the challenge in finding a constructive way forward is that the voices that Paul Davies brings to this debate, and the way I'm sure we'll have the committee discussion, should allow a platform for evidence and reality to govern the discussions we have, and the genuinely constructive way forward that I want to have. That will include sharing with the committee some of the points around the OECD work that they're doing with us. I think that would be a helpful way to provide an update, through the committee, to Members.
What we cannot and will not do is to walk away from those voices that are making claims that are not grounded in reality, and we won't be celebrating the fact that some money has been announced but it still results in an overall significant loss to Wales. And that's the position. I'll come back to some of the points that the Member made about the evidence for the claims that I've made. When it comes to 1,000 jobs being lost from the higher education sector, Paul Boyle was undeniably clear about this in his comments, made on 24 January of this year. He referred to the 1,000 jobs, speaking on behalf of the HE sector, that are going. There are specific examples in Cardiff, in Swansea, in Wrexham. In virtually every university, there are people who will no longer be employed in the sector unless there is a rapid turnaround, and I don't think, from the spring budget, that we're going to see the sort of action we should do from the UK Government.
When it comes to other areas, in the voluntary sector, Chwarae Teg are making half their staff redundant because of the way that replacement EU funds have been delivered. When it comes to the community employability programmes, the voluntary sector, co-ordinated through the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, has delivered over 23,000 opportunities for work and for training for disadvantaged people since 2015. Those programmes are closed. So, if you want to do a broader economic impact, I'd be more than happy to see that done with the committee to understand the scale of the loss that has taken place.
It's not just the money, of course, it's the design of the programmes, because it's deliberately avoiding, actually, constructive and strategic projects. Paul Davies will know, from his scrutinising role in the Senedd, Senedd committees, and, indeed, House of Commons committees, have all commented that, in the varying lifetimes of European programmes and European moneys that we and other regions of the UK have had, we moved from having smaller, less strategic projects to ones where you have a smaller number of bigger, strategic projects with a bigger return. The approach we're seeing in the shared prosperity fund and the levelling-up fund is to go back to a way that has much smaller projects, much smaller outcomes and is a poor strategic use of that money. I believe you'll see that in the committee Huw Irranca-Davies is chairing, and I'm more than happy, again, to work through the committee and through Senedd Members to highlight the work that is being done there so Members are kept in the loop on what we're doing.
I'll finish on Multiply. Multiply is a generally cackhanded intervention that makes no real sense at all in practical reality. Not only is adult numeracy plainly devolved, it's an area where it's not been possible to spend the money, and the UK Government haven't actually got the money out of the door. Every time they have promised to make decisions—. It was due to be autumn last year; they didn't make decisions on Multiply until January, then they held money back because they knew it couldn't be spent. The annual nature of that fund is a real problem, not just, as I highlighted in the statement, because you almost certainly can't spend all the money properly within the year or you end up sending it back to the Treasury, which is not what it was intended for, but even the initial scheme, to have the three-year funding—there aren't going to be three full years of funding to deliver. You can't expect providers to gear up to deliver new adult numeracy programmes without having any certainty on when the money will be delivered, never mind how it will then be spent and how that works against firms that work for their learners themselves. So, you've got a programme whose design militates against its effective implementation. If there had been a conversation around how we could improve basic skills for adults, numeracy and literacy, we could have designed something that would have worked and made good use of the money, and that's the opportunity that has been lost.
I'll leave it there, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm sure there'll be more opportunity to contribute in constructive detail with the committee's inquiry.

Luke Fletcher AS: I join the Minister in welcoming back my colleague and opposite number in the Tory party. I'm particularly glad to see him back in the Chamber, and I'm particularly looking forward to working with him on the committee inquiry into this very subject, where I think we'll be able to drill down into a lot of the detail and get a lot of the answers to the questions that we're raising today. But I would start by saying that we've known for some time that the UK Government's much delayed and shambolically implemented post-Brexit funding arrangements will leave Wales poorer, compared with its position in the EU, to the tune of upwards of £1.1 billion. Now, this will become ever more apparent in the coming months as Wales's access to EU legacy funds comes to an end and we are left with the scraps thrown from the Westminster table.
Round 2 of the levelling-up fund saw an even lower proportion of successful Welsh bids than round 1, with only 11 of 43 bids in Wales receiving funding. So, that means a mere 26 per cent of the total funds applied for by Welsh local authorities have been approved.
From a broader perspective, the £4.8 billion set aside by the UK Government for the levelling-up fund should be contextualised against the £10 billion-worth of cuts to local authorities' spending power since 2010, which is a direct consequence of the Tory austerity agenda. The fact that these arrangements, many of which overlap into devolved areas of competence, were designed unilaterally by the UK Government, with next to no input from the Welsh Government, demonstrates yet again that taking back control in reality means centralising control. In doing so, they disrespect the devolution settlement, they disrespect the democratic wishes of Wales. As has often been the case with this out-of-touch and out-of-control Tory Government, the bombast of its rhetoric does not in any way match its actual record of delivery. In this case, the hollowness of its ambition to level up is underlined in particular by the fact that it continues to deny Wales its fair share of Barnett consequentials from the HS2 project, despite the fact that not a single yard of track will be built in Wales. We’ve been denied the consequential from the Northern Powerhouse Rail project. That’s another £1 billion on top of the £5 billion from HS2. Imagine what we could do with that money.
The refusal of both the Tories and Keir Starmer's Tory tribute act to commit to providing Wales's fair share speaks volumes about the complete apathy at Westminster. Yet more proof—if any was needed—that Westminster, regardless of the party in power, does not and will never work for Wales.
Coming back to local authorities, Minister, what work has the Welsh Government done to support local authorities in their bids and to help co-ordinate applications? As you've set out, there are a number of local authorities that have yet to receive support from the so-called levelling-up fund, and how will the Government also ensure that it doesn’t repeat the same mistakes of the UK Government? There’s a role for the innovation strategy here, but it’s still unclear how, specifically, its success will be monitored.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and the questions. I just want to make a point about legacy funds, as Luke Fletcher mentioned them. One of the challenges in understanding what’s been claimed around replacement funds is that Conservative Ministers at the UK Government have tried to claim that they can net off the funds that we’ve already had. Well, that’s not how EU replacement funds have worked; we'd have had access to those funds in the here and now, and we are still losing out. We have still absolutely lost out, and it's why we get to the £1.1 billion figure, on the same basis that the UK Government calculate these matters, and it does, of course, include significant losses to support for the rural economy.
On Barnett and the points made, I'd welcome a Government that simply followed the rules and stopped pretending that some projects were England-and-Wales projects when they're absolutely not. I'd welcome a Government that actually looked again at our own borrowing limits to actually keep pace with reality.
And I don't agree with Luke Fletcher's prescription; I don't accept his characterisation of the way that the opposition frontbench and the UK Labour Party has looked at these matters. More importantly, of course, the people of Wales don't agree with Luke Fletcher either. People will have their choice—I hope sooner rather than later—on the future of the UK Government in a general election. But, at that point, we'll see how the people of Wales vote. I look forward to a Government that we can work with, and Keir Starmer's recent announcement that, if he were the Prime Minister, the decision-making powers over EU funds would return to where they should be, and where they had been for more than 20 years until the Tories stole those powers away from Wales. We would then have the opportunity to make those choices in the Government and we would be properly and fully scrutinised by the Senedd in doing so. Devolution that works in a strong, united United Kingdom is what I want to see and it's what the people of Wales want to see. I'm actually speaking to you from Brussels, where we're dealing with the practical consequences of having left the European Union; I don't think there's an appetite in Wales to leave the union of the UK.
On the innovation strategy, there is constructive work being done both with the sector, and indeed with Plaid Cymru through the co-operation agreement. When it comes to the measuring of the success of the innovation strategy, that's some of the work we're now taking forward. And you'll note from the strategy itself that, in the work that I've been doing with the leader of Plaid Cymru, we're actually looking at how we design and deliver what that will look like for each of the missions that we've got, and we'll also be providing a report back in one year, then three years and five years of the innovation strategy. The first year, I think, will be particularly important, because it will set out how the dust has settled, now that it's been splintered and thrown up in the air by a number of the UK Government choices. Then, I think we'll also then start to see some of the impacts of how people across the innovation landscape—that's both HE, FE and indeed academia and beyond—will be getting used to what we are trying to do with a more mission-based approach. I'm more than happy to keep sharing what that looks like, not just with designated Members in the co-operation agreement, but also to give an update to the Chamber as we do more work on that, because I want it to be well seen, understood, and transparent.

Mike Hedges AC: The shared prosperity fund, as Luke Fletcher has just said, leaves us £1.1 billion short, compared to the European Union structural and rural funds. In the existing round of European Union programmes, £380 million was invested in research, development and innovation, which supported the expansion of research facilities and major collaboration between business and academia. The shared prosperity fund does not even have research, development and innovation within its investment priorities. Levelling up and the shared prosperity fund need to increase the GVA and the medium salary in Wales. Research and development are key to levelling up. I mention the two Cambridges, Cambridge Massachusetts and Cambridge in England, both of which do incredibly well because they have that investment in that.Look at successful economies in the world, and research and innovation are key.
The other way the Westminster Government could help levelling up is by the relocation of civil service jobs. This is what the 1964-70 Labour Government did. Has any discussion of relocating additional civil service jobs to Wales been undertaken with the Westminster Government? Finally, does the Minister agree that the promise of 'not a penny less' has been broken?

Vaughan Gething AC: Okay, thank you. On civil service jobs, there hasn't been any kind of sensible discussion with the UK Government on a whole range of subjects, and that includes civil service jobs relocation. We have seen some civil service jobs come into Wales, but they've broadly been in areas to try to compete with the UK Government. An example is some of the work on Trade and Invest. I think it was a deliberate ploy to wind people up, for the planning application for a new office in Cardiff to have a giant union flag on it, but actually the challenge is, in practical terms, we want to have a landscape that works for businesses.
There is support available from the UK Government for exporters, there's support available for exporters from the Welsh Government. We've had very successful recent exporters' conferences, one in south Wales and one in north Wales, with well over 100 attendees, lots of businesses there. We are actively trying to make sure that the offer is an open one, and we will direct people, whether it's to the UK Government or the Welsh Government, for support. That hasn't always been the way that UK Government departments have behaved. It's an area where we could do with a pragmatic recognition of how we can help support businesses rather than the current approach, which is sometimes competitive where it doesn't need to be.
On research, development and innovation, I completely agree with Mike Hedges. It's one of the reasons why the headline promise to increase research and development funding outside the south-east of England by 40 per cent is a challenge. It's so concentrated at present in that part of the UK that a 40 per cent increase for Wales would mean just an extra £9 million of additional expenditure by 2030. Given that we invested over £50 million each year, and you're right, £380 million over seven years, from EU funds to go into RD&I, we need to see a much greater and more significant investment in research, development and innovation funds for Wales. That's one of the key objectives of the innovation strategy, and it's why I'm agreeing a joint action plan with Innovate UK, to try to deliver more funds for research, development and innovation in Wales.
And, finally, it is absolutely clear that the pledge on 'not a penny less' has been broken. As I said, £1.1 billion equates to, if my maths is right, and I see the finance Minister on the screen—that isn't one penny, that's 110 billion pennies lost to Wales over this period of time.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I did note in particular in your statement, Minister, the comment of Wales having less say over how money is spent as a consequence of actions here. But, of course, this isn't quite right, is it, because whilst Welsh Government may have less say, the people of Wales have an opportunity to have even more say over how this money is spent, because of course it is locally elected councillors who will now make decisions on behalf of their communities. It's actually more people having a say, not fewer people. And I for one want to be able to trust those councils and councillors to make the right decisions for our communities.
So, with this in mind, Minister, I don't believe you answered Luke Fletcher's question earlier, when he asked what support you'll be providing to councils to help ensure that these funds are being spent in the best way possible. So, I'd be grateful if you were able to answer that. But also how would you see the role of regional bodies in Wales, whether corporate joint committees or other bodies, working with councils to provide, again, support for the delivery of these important projects? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the two broad areas of questioning. I'll start with your final one, and apologies for not properly covering Luke Fletcher's question, in terms of the support for councils. It's what I was referring to in my statement. I want to be able to work with local authorities, in particular in their regions, now that we've had two rounds of the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund has actually had some allocations delivered, to understand where there are gaps—and there plainly are gaps in different parts of Wales—where there is potential duplication, and how we actually try to manage the way that those funds have been splintered apart in the way that provides the least harm and actually maximises the opportunities that do exist. That's a practical exercise that needs to take place. It only needs to take place because of the way that the funds have been managed and delivered. That goes back to your first point about whether Wales has less say over less money. It is undeniably true that Wales has less say over less money. Your brave but nonsense attempt to try to say that because the local authorities are now administering the funds that actually there is more say just doesn't bear up against reality. Don't take my word for it; take the word of the WLGA and their view on what's happening with levelling-up funds.
If you look at north Wales, the region you represent, Flintshire, has not got a single penny from the levelling-up fund. If you look at the shared prosperity fund, the way that it's been delivered actually places extra burdens on local authorities and makes them the meat in the sandwich when other parts of key sectors, including research, including the third sector, have lost out and have then been told by a range of UK Government representatives, 'Go and see your local authority; they've got the money now.' It's an unfair fight where there is a brave and undeniably deliberate attempt by the UK Government to direct people to local authorities for the challenges and the problems that they have created. The framework has all been determined by the UK Government: the funding formula, the framework, the annual nature of it, the poor choices that are bound to be made, the lack of strategic direction—all determined by the UK Government. Far from powers being returned to Wales, powers have been taken from Wales and used in Whitehall, and local authorities are now expected to carry the can. I would have thought that as a former leader in local authority you would be much more interested in standing up for your former colleagues in local government, rather than trying to say that, somehow, they have now got a brave new era in delivering less say over less money.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement and for your frankness in explaining to the people of Wales how the farcical arrangements of the UK Government's shared prosperity fund and levelling-up fund have let our communities down. As you will know, these are policy areas that I've been keeping a close eye on in my capacity as chair of the industrial communities cross-party group, where we have taken frequent and strong evidence from the Industrial Communities Alliance about the damage that these botched funds are causing across Wales. Minister, you've set out the headline figures of the damage being done to our crucial research, development and innovation sector, but could you expand further on the long-term implications that we are likely to face to the higher education sector due to the UK Government's refusal to replace those lost EU funds to RD&I?
Secondly, what assessment have you made of the economic damage incurred by the fact that, unlike EU funding streams, these funds are not multi-annual in nature, something that the ICA and Professor Steve Fothergill have repeatedly warned the UK Government is detrimental to successful project delivery?
Finally, Minister, I was very pleased to hear the leader of UK Labour, Keir Starmer, pledge at the recent Welsh Labour conference that the next UK Labour Government will restore these lost economic powers to Wales. Will you join with me in welcoming this very positive announcement?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I completely agree that people in Wales have been let down by the approach of the Conservative Government. It's the Conservative Government, not the union, that is letting people down, in my view. I think the industrial communities cross-party group has been genuinely really constructive in highlighting not just some of the challenges, but also looking for what answers in a better world could look like, and in particular I pay tribute to the way thatVikki Howells has spoken with UK parliamentary colleagues, and trying to make sure there's a joined-up conversation around what 'better' could and should look like.
The difficulty with higher education research is that the loss can be permanent. These people are mobile and sought after, and actually there's no guarantee they'll stay in the UK, let alone stay in Wales. There are other people who are looking for people with skills and with talent, and they may disappear. The challenge is not just the loss of those jobs in the sector, the money that they have and the spend that they have in local communities; it's also the potential for what then happens when people are making other choices around business development and location. People often look for areas for research, development and innovation, as Mike Hedges has pointed out. When you lose a significant chunk of that, it makes the universities potentially less attractive, and potentially means that opportunities for economic development are less attractive as well. We are trying to swim against that tide and that deliberate UK Government choice. The good news is we do have key strengths that we can work to: advanced manufacturing, the fintech sector, semiconductors as well and more—of course, renewable energy. It would have been so much better and easier if we had not lost the 1,000 jobs that I think are bound to depart Wales.
And on multi-annual funding, I think you're absolutely right. One of my key criticisms has always been that even with a smaller sum of money if it's multi-annual you're going to have a greater benefit from it. You almost always need to spend time designing something, to work with partners, to understand how it will be delivered, to make sure you can understand how the assurance takes place and then to get on and deliver it. If you've got to do all of that within one year, your time frame to do something strategic is much shorter, much less likely to be well spent, and part of me is even more frustrated that, from the UK Government's point of view, it's a small thing to move on but it would improve the value for money that that programme will deliver. I'm robustly confident that if the Welsh Government chose not to have a multi-annual spending approach when it could do that, we would be robustly criticised by subject committees and, indeed, public accounts representatives who would be looking at the value for money, and I'd call again on the UK Government, if nothing else, to look again at the multi-annual nature of these funds.
And, of course, I certainly do welcome Keir Starmer's recent statement. It's the sort of partnership that we need between a Welsh Government and a UK Government that could and should deliver a better future for people right across our country.

And, finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Minister, I visited a £38 million EU-funded project called TRAC, delivered by Coleg Llandrillo, that supported young people who are disengaging from education and at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training. Unfortunately, this is an example of a valuable regional project that came to an end after Brexit. I was hoping it would continue under new funding streams and have been keeping a watch. And I recently read a press release that local authorities in north Wales have been awarded an allocation of shared prosperity funding over a three-year period and were asking for bids. Apparently though, the criteria are complicated and any projects have to be spent by the end of next year. So, it's not a three-year project. From past experience of applying for and delivering grants, including doing research, costings, public consultations, feasibility studies, employing and delivering, this is going to take a while and will not have sustainability built in if it's only for one year. And Flintshire said they've taken off the levelling-up funding bids from their council plan now, after trying two times and have failed. It took up lots of scarce significant resources, and the feedback from the UK Government was that the bids were really good, but it was just too competitive. So, Minister, do you agree that this is not the best way to achieve value for money, and far more needs to be done by the UK Government to support projects, such as TRAC, over the long term? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I absolutely agree that this is a very poor way to try to deliver sustainable economic growth, and the annual nature of the funding choices makes no sense whatsoever if you want to deliver good value for money. It's a point that's not been made just by me; it's a point that's been made by House of Commons select committees, for example. And, of course, it's important in this regard to remember that these are cross-party groups with a majority of Conservative backbenchers upon them; that they themselves recognise that it is a poor way to spend money.
And the point about the criteria being complicated is also part of the difficulty we face. It's not just that though. But, in some of the criticism about what's happened with the levelling-up fund, the public accounts committee in June last year noted that in the way that choices were made by UK Ministers, Ministers finalised the principles for awarding funds only after they knew the identities and scores of short-listed bidders. Now, that does not look like an objective way to deliver levelling up. That looks very much like the UK Government having Ministers deciding to choose winners on criteria that are neither objective nor fair and certainly not strategic. I would really like to have a different relationship with any shade of UK Government: one that is based on evidence, one that is based on pragmatic and constructive reality between our two Governments to try to make a difference with and for all the people of Wales. That simply isn't possible with the current approach from the UK Government. I would welcome a different approach, even from the current one, if not, we may well have to wait until a general election provides the people of Wales and the UK with an opportunity to change course at UK level.

Thank you, Minister.

7. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: Historical Adoption Practices

Item 7 today is a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Serviceson historical adoption practices. I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to be able to make a statement to Members today about historical adoption practices in Wales. This follows the Joint Committee on Human Rights inquiry into the experiences of unmarried women and their children who were adopted during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. The committee looked at whether adoption processes respected the human rights, as we understand them now, of the mothers and children affected. It also examined the lasting consequences of these practices on their lives. I’m very pleased that we are joined in the gallery today by mothers who’ve been affected by historical practices, adult children and others.
Earlier this year, at the Big Adoption Conversation in Wales, I offered my own apologies for what happened and acknowledged the lifelong impact forced adoption had on the lives of many people. Forced adoption practices predate devolution in Wales, but they continue to affect those who experienced them—parents, children and wider family members. For many, the feelings of loss, grief, anger and pain remain.
At the time when these adoptions took place, many of the women were young, vulnerable and experiencing personal crises. They were not always informed of any legal rights to look after their child themselves or provided with the help that they needed to do so. Some were made to feel inadequate, immoral and undeserving when it came to raising their own babies. Adoption was put forward as the only option because of a lack of financial and other support, and the stigma associated with illegitimacy and motherhood out of wedlock. Even now, many of those affected find it extremely difficult to open up and talk about the lifelong heartbreak they’ve kept to themselves for fear of still being judged.
The hurt endured by these historical practices extends beyond the birth mother’s relationship with her child. Some children who were adopted in these circumstances have suffered a lifetime of insecurity and anxiety, despite being loved and cared for by their adoptive parents. Some have an ongoing feeling that a part of them is missing and continue to question why their birth parents didn’t look after them and bring them up themselves. The grief associated with not knowing who they are is common amongst these children and relates to loss of identity, lack of information about their origins, of both birth parents, and for many, including the children of ethnic minority parents, a loss of their wider cultural and ethnic background.
While the trauma of forced adoption has been well documented from a mother and child’s perspective, the impact on the father is often forgotten. Birth fathers were generally disregarded and blamed for corrupting innocent girls. They had little or no say in what happened to the baby after birth, leaving them feeling helpless and unable to support their partners. They very often become the forgotten characters whose voices were ignored. I therefore want to acknowledge fathers’ experiences when it comes to these historical practices too.
These practices were unethical, immoral and may in some cases have been illegal, and I want to put on record today my profound sympathy for all those affected by historical forced adoption. Regardless of the societal pressures or social norms of the day, such inhumane practices should never be an acceptable part of our society in Wales. The harm done to these individuals is great, but as a Government, we owe them every chance to live the rest of their lives as free from trauma and torment as possible.
We cannot change what has happened, but I can provide assurances that adoption legislation and practices have been significantly improved since. Adoption is now only considered when all other options have been fully explored. Services are designed to help birth families stay together whenever that is possible, and when it is not, adoption provides children with safety, stability and the opportunity to thrive. I would also like to acknowledge and put on record the important contribution adoptive parents continue to make on behalf of children by taking them into their homes and into their hearts. We, the Welsh Government, are grateful to them for providing the love and support that all children need. Diolch. Thank you.
As a Government, we are listening to people's experiences and stories to ensure that the right support and professional counselling for those affected is readily available. The National Adoption Service has developed a webpage specifically for those affected by historical adoptions. This provides a host of information relating to adoption support and counselling, access to records and intermediary services. It'll also be able to signpost individuals to other services, including peer support and advocacy groups, Welsh Government funded post-adoption support services and other long-standing non-Government service providers.
My officials have already begun to work alongside the National Adoption Service to consider the issues outlined within the joint committee's report and develop support services that will address the specific needs of those affected by these practices. We've recently held a consultation event involving birth parents affected by historical adoption practices. This provided a safe space to listen to and hear views and to inform our service development. We will continue to engage with these mothers as we develop our services.
Officials and the National Adoption Service have started scoping the regulatory changes that could be introduced in Wales to support the issues related to the shortage of counsellors able to provide post-adoption support alongside considering our intermediary services. We're also committed to fully exploring with those affected the key challenges they face with regard to adoption records. we're currently scoping what an improved national access to records service for those affected by these historical practices could look like in Wales.
As we face future challenges, we will remember the lessons of family separation and continue to protect the fundamental rights of children and the importance of their right to be cared for by a parent. That is why, as part of our work to radically reform children's services in Wales, we're committed to continuing to develop services that can support vulnerable families to stay together.
I would like to convey my deepest sympathy and regret to all those affected. Due to society failing you, you've had to endure such appalling historical practices in Wales, and for this, the Welsh Government is truly sorry.

Gareth Davies AS: Could I firstly thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward today's statement on historical adoption practices, which follows the Joint Committee on Human Rights inquiry into the experience of unmarried women and their children who were adopted during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s?
As you mention in your statement, Minister, many historical adoption practices were unethical, immoral and, in many cases, illegal. In addition to this, these practices continue to impact many who experienced them, and also, for many, the feelings of loss, grief, anger and pain remain. This really was an utterly horrific situation—one that should not have occurred and must never happen again. In light of this, Minister, on this side of the Chamber, the Welsh Conservative Senedd group would like to identify with the apology that has been made by the Welsh Government today. Many people will be able to sympathise with the devastating impact that these forced adoptions caused. And being a father of two children myself, it would be a pain that would be never ending.
Deputy Minister, if I may, I'd like to raise a few questions with you regarding your statement today. You said, Deputy Minister, that many who underwent adoption practices were not always informed of any legal rights to look after their children themselves or provided with the help that they needed to do so. Of course, this is extremely concerning, Deputy Minister, so could I ask what work is now being undertaken to ensure that all those liaising with adoption practices are informed of their legal rights?
Secondly, Deputy Minister, you say that some children who were adopted in these circumstances have suffered a lifetime of insecurity and anxiety, despite being loved and cared for by their adoptive parents. In light of this, Minister, what further work is being carried out to ensure that those who have been impacted are fully supported?
And finally, Deputy Minister, you mentioned that a consultation event was recently held, involving birth parents affected by historic adoption practices. Could I welcome this consultation and ask if any initial assessment has been made from this initial consultation, and whether any more will be carried out in the near future? And to reiterate what I stated at the beginning of my response, I'd like to thank you for bringing forward today's statement and I reiterate our support for your actions this afternoon. Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank the Member very much for his contribution. Thank you for associating yourself with the apology that I've given on behalf of the Welsh Government today. That is very much appreciated. Obviously, you raised some very important points. We are working to make sure that children who are adopted now and mothers of children who are adopted, parents of children who are adopted, are fully aware of their legal rights and have the opportunity to have the support and professional advice that they need. Adoption is, as I said in my speech, now considered to be the last resort, and every effort is made to keep children with their families and to give support to them at home. That is why we've got the programme, as you know, of trying to radically transform children's services, which puts in so much support to try to keep children in their families and in their communities.
The point about adopted children often experiencing insecurity and anxiety is something that has been well recorded, and we do put in resources for post-adoption support. There is a considerable amount of post-adoption support now going on in Wales. In fact, I think in the barometer, where it's listed how different parts of the UK are managing their services, Wales does score very highly in terms of the support it gives to families in Wales. So, we do have specifically post-adoption services that are dealing with the trauma. Because I think in the past we thought you have an adoption order and that's it and everybody lives happily ever after, but obviously that's not true. It is basically a lifetime, really, of coming to terms with the trauma that may have happened before and of dealing with the feelings that have resulted as a result of not knowing, sometimes, what your origins were, and also the stress that has been left with the mothers and the other people involved whose babies weren't given up for adoption but were taken.
And then, finally, the consultation. We have set up a consultation group, which is made up of people with lived experience of these practices. We hope that this will form a permanent group that we can work with so that our responses will be geared to what is wanted and what is needed. We want to be sure that we bring people who are aware of what actually happened to them and the effect it has had on their lives so that we can respond in the strongest way possible. Thank you very much for the support.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for this very important statement. This is something that forces us to reflect on the importance of having our own Senedd here in Wales, that we can put right some of the wrongs of the past, and to give that important apology. They are small words and easy to say, but it's so difficult and people have had to fight so hard. We know that the UK Government continues to be of the view that there isn't a need for this kind of apology, but it's important that we do acknowledge what has happened in the past.
I'd like to associate myself and Plaid Cymru with your apology and your comments today. This is an important moment, an important statement, and I hope it'll give some comfort to those people who are suffering trauma and ongoing suffering. It won't put right what has been done, it's not going to remove that trauma, but certainly having that recognition that they deserve an apology is very important indeed and I'm pleased and proud to see this happening in our national Parliament.
Certainly, it was an important moment to see Scotland doing this, and there are a number of lessons to be learned. I'm sure we will all have met people who have suffered because of this cruel policy, and it was cruel—cruel to everyone involved. And it's very important that things are different now, and it's good to have an assurance from the Deputy Minister that things are now different and that we have learnt those lessons. But certainly, this is something that we will need to keep a close eye on in an ongoing manner and to ensure that all necessary support is available to any family or individual in that difficult situation.
The one thing I would like to see—. I saw in your statement, and I would like some clarity, in terms of the support that will now be available, because clearly, hearing the apology could actually bring up all of these feelings in many, many people. You referred to counselling. The Scottish Government had declared £145,000 specifically to provide specialist support and counselling for those affected. So, may I ask whether there is specific funding in place in order to support this, or how do you intend to ensure that that support is available? Because, clearly, many people will be listening to your statement today, and it would be good to have an assurance in terms of how they can access that support. So, that's my only question, but thank you for this. As I say, it's an important moment for our Senedd, and I'm very proud to see the Welsh Government doing this today.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much for that contribution and for the association of Plaid Cymru with the apology. I'm very grateful for that, and I think it's really important that we are united across the whole of the Senedd in supporting this apology, and we do hope that this apology in itself will bring some relief to the people who I know have campaigned for so long in order to get an apology, and it is good that we have devolution and we can make that decision here, and we have decided that we must formally apologise to the people who have let us know what it has meant to them all these years—these historical practices that were so poor. I think Heledd Fychan is absolutely right in saying that this was a cruel policy, and we should recognise that now. And it is different now—we have learnt lessons—but we do have to keep a watching brief and seeing exactly what is happening, and I hope that we have got that built into the system in order to keep that watching brief.
In terms of what we will be able to provide, there is a shortage of counsellors, and we are looking at ways of perhaps changing the regulations in order to be able to get more counsellors available, but we are doing all this in consultation with the group that we've set up. So, I'm not really able to say that we will do something specific or spend a specific amount of money, because we want to do it co-productively with people who have actually got the lived experience.
As I said in response to the earlier question, Wales has got a good record on post-adoption support now, because we have put considerable resources into it, so we do have places to direct people, but we do hope that, by making this public apology, by making it as public as we possibly can, it will reach those people who haven't actually been in the campaigns but have been having this secret for years and years, and not being able to have the opportunity to express it. So, I hope we are going to reach some of those people, and obviously, we will have to respond to any request that we actually get. I think the apology in itself is very important, but I know that it does lead to the need to do other things.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for your leadership on this matter. [Interruption.] Thank you very much for your leadership on this really painful matter. Reflecting on when I was a young woman in the 1960s and 1970s, I can genuinely say that I did not know about this. I was a very misbehaving, radical woman, and had I known, I would have done something about it. Instead, I was campaigning for women's right to choose. These women had no choice, and it is certain that these practices were unethical, immoral and—almost certainly—an abuse of their human rights. I think we have to ask ourselves how it is that these organisations that have suppressed this information from the wider public for some 30 years—it was really only in the 1980s and 1990s that these issues started to be aired in public—. And what were the bystanders to all that was going on doing? Why did they not speak out? These are things we absolutely have to ask ourselves.
In terms of the mitigation that you are endeavouring to rectify in relation to the harm done to these women—mothers and fathers—as well as their children, it seems to be absolutely urgent that people need to meet their parents before they die. And, therefore, it is essential that we accelerate the process of enabling people to see their records and give them every help to try and track down their relatives. So, I heard you say that you were thinking of changing the regulations—hallelujah, let's do that, because these people have got to have some justice, some closure on what is an appalling event that will have dogged them for all of their lives.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for those contributions. The Joint Committee on Human Rights—if you read their report, it does give some of the history of what has happened, and how it happened, so that is very worth reading. We are starting to look at whether we could have a Wales-wide way of getting access to records, because we do hear some quite distressing stories about the difficulty of getting access to records, of how it often takes them a long time, and the support is not always there for when people do actually access those records. So, we are certainly looking at that.
And with new adoption practices, we are trying to ensure that adopted young people and children are able, if it is at all possible, if they are adopted, to keep contact with their first families, because having spoken to and known many adopted young people, they do want to have that link. And if we are able to build it in in a more natural way, right from the beginning, if it's not possible for the children to live at home with their families, and adoption is the best option, if we can build in adoption with contact with their first families, I think that is what we are moving towards. And I think this is quite common in some other countries—much more common than it is here. Because we want to move away from a situation where everything is done in a cloak of secrecy, and where it is possible, we want that contact to be there, so we don't have the situation of people striving to make contact with their parents and not being able to reach them.
So, I think there are a lot of practical things we can do that will make it much easier for people in this situation, and we are absolutely committed in the Welsh Government to doing all we possibly can to relieve the utter distress that has been caused by these practices that took place some years ago.

Jane Dodds AS: I'd like to pay tribute to those people affected by this absolutely abhorrent practice. I pay tribute to the poise and dignity that you have all brought to this debate and this discussion, and I'm sure we all humbly stand here, really, in awe of you, but also, in shame of what happened in the past. As leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, and as chair of the cross-party group on children, I associate myself with the apology, and I thank you for that. I can see how important it is to this Government, with the First Minister here in the Siambr, and many members of the Cabinet as well, associating themselves with the Welsh Government and the Welsh people's position on apologising to those people affected. I cannot imagine the horrors that you went through, and I thank you for bringing this to our attention. And I thank you, as survivors of this, we need to be constantly reminded of what has happened in the past, and how we can improve it for the future. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Jane, for associating the Liberal Democrats with this apology. So, that means that all the parties in the Chamber are thoroughly behind this apology. So, I think that this is just obviously the beginning of the work that we're going to do on this issue, but I think it is very important that we finally acknowledge what happened to those young women so many years ago, and that we don't forget that, that we don't forget the terrible upset they went through in terms of having a baby born to you, wanting to keep it, and having it taken away from you and it being accepted as being the norm at the time. We must never, ever let anything like that happen again, and I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is able to apologise today and commit itself to doing all we possibly can in the future to help.

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I, like Jane, want to express my admiration for the bravery that the women who have brought this forward have demonstrated, because that's not easy, and it was necessary—that's the issue. When we're talking about the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, we're not really talking that long ago. My children were born in the 1970s, and I was a young mother myself, and I cannot imagine the pain and the heartache that those women were going through. I had a friend who did go through that, and she never got over it, ever, and she didn't know where her child was and how that child was faring. Her parents—her parents—thought they were doing the right thing, because the stigma that she would have experienced, so they believed, was greater than the loss of her child. Of course they were wrong, but they did it for the right reasons. She told me her story many decades ago about loving her son, about knitting things so that they could go with him, about buying toys, and about the huge wrench, the loss, when that child left the room for the last time. She lived with that. So, I knew about it, really, from the 1980s.
So, I don't think that society served anybody well here because it wasn't just the mothers and the fathers that have been mentioned, but it was the whole family, the family who were forced, in a way, to do what they thought was the right thing for their daughters and all the stigma that went with that. And, of course, the state was involved. The state could have helped; they could have supported financially if they'd chosen to do that instead of stigmatising young women—sometimes, not always young women, but just women who weren't married, who didn't fit a norm. So, I commend you today, and everybody in here will support you, in giving that apology. What we can do, moving forward, for those women and their children—and there will be grandchildren now as well—is hugely important.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Joyce, for those words. I think Joyce does remind us that this was not long ago, really, when this happened. You were talking about the 1980s, so it's not very long ago at all. And also to remind us that there are grandchildren, so there's a whole mass of people who have been affected by this, and the effects will go on for a long time. So, once again, thank you very much for the support given here in the Senedd today, and thank you, above all, to those people, some of whom are here with us in the gallery today, for campaigning and bringing this to the attention of us, of the public, of the Government, and once again, the Welsh Government is deeply sorry. [Applause.]

Thank you very much to the Deputy Minister.

8. The Construction Contracts (Exclusion) (Wales) Order 2023

The next item is the Construction Contracts (Exclusion) (Wales) Order 2023. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8244 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Construction Contracts (Exclusion) (Wales) Order 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 14 March 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This Order is designed to remove the risk of water companies paying for unfinished stages of work and for water bill payers, who fund water companies, having to pay for this through their water bills. Its purpose is to allow direct procurement projects, or DPCs, regulated by Ofwat, the water industry economic regulator, to sit outside some of the requirements of the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996. The exclusion will apply to agreements between water companies and certain companies who bid for and are awarded contracts under the direct procurement mechanism, such as large-scale infrastructure projects. Currently, only one such agreement is proposed for Wales, a new water treatment works.
DPC projects and payments will be structured in a way similar to the Welsh Government mutual investment model. Water companies are purchasing a service from the contractor, which includes the design, build and finance of an asset. In line with MIM and other project finance models, the contractor will not normally receive payment until the construction of all or part of the project is complete and capable of providing a service. This may include payment only at the end of the construction of the project and also staged payments for when parts of projects are completed, providing a service. Replicating the exclusion Order for MIM and project finance models will allow the water company to tailor its DPC payment terms to its project to drive best values for the customer.
The Act requires payment to be made for construction activity as it progresses and not on completion. It applies to the agreement between the competitively appointed provider and the water company. The direct procurement project structure cannot operate unless there is an exemption from the application of these aspects of the construction Act. The purpose of making this Order is to allow for payment on completion and delivery of agreed work, as opposed to activity that does not result in delivery. This removes the risk of water companies paying for unfinished stages of work and for water bill payers, who fund water companies, having to pay for this through their water bills. Diolch.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. We considered this draft Order on 27 March, which led to some additional correspondence with the Minister, and we thank her for the response that we received. Our report on the draft Order contains just one merits reporting point, and the merits reporting point is quite detailed, and Members will be pleased to hear me say that they can find that detail in our report, rather than reading it out.
So, this afternoon I'll just summarise it by saying it wasn't clear to us the point at which payments by water companies may be made under a relevant contract. The initial response we received from Welsh Government went some way to add in further clarity, however it didn't resolve our concerns completely. And in particular, it remained unclear to us how article 3(1)(d) of the draft Order accords with the Ofwat stipulation, as described in paragraph 4.9 of the explanatory memorandum, which suggests that payment may only be made once a construction project has been completed. The Minister's response sets out that Ofwat's guidance anticipates that different payment approaches may be required for different projects and that the intention of article 3(1)(d) is to provide sufficient detail for relevant contracts to be identified, but to permit also some flexibility as to payment arrangements. Now, in our view, there remains a lack of clarity in the explanatory memorandum as to this flexibility around payment timing. However, if Ofwat and industry are content that this is clear enough, then we would make no further comment. Diolch yn fawr.

The Minister to respond.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Just to say that, as we pointed out to the committee, parties entering into DPC procurements will have full knowledge of the terms, including that payment will only commence after construction has been completed. So, the point, really, is that we don't think the company would be at any disadvantage, and, in any event, Llywydd, there is only one at this point in time in Wales. So, we do recommend that Members vote for the Order.

The proposal, therefore, is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

The next item is a legislative consent motion on the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill. I call on the Minister for the Constitution to move the motion. Mick Antoniw.

Motion NDM8243 Mick Antoniw
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motion. And I'm grateful for the work of the committee for legislation, justice and constitution and the committee for economy, trade, and rural affairs on this matter, and for the reports they have published. I'm pleased that majorities on both committees broadly agreed with the position the Government set out in the legislative consent memorandum.
The LCM and committee reports make it clear why this Senedd should be concerned about the implications of the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, both because of the inclusion of several devolved public services within its scope, and also because of the sweeping Henry VIII powers that afford the opportunity for the Secretary of State to make future regulations that could have profound implications for Wales, legislation passed by this Senedd and our public services.

Mick Antoniw AC: It is no secret that the Welsh Government opposes this Bill. This Bill is an attack on workers' rights and trade unions. It was 123 years ago that railway workers in Pontypridd took industrial action that the House of Lords declared unlawful. And this led to the 1911 Trade Disputes Act, which established in law the right to take industrial action. It is a right that is enshrined across the free world and is a cornerstone of international conventions and international law and human rights. This Bill seeks to reverse over 100 years of progress. Llywydd, when you look across the world and throughout history, it is those Governments that stand against democracy that restrict trade union rights, and there can be no justification for treating an attack on these hard-won rights as a convenient political stunt.
The introduction of the UK Trade Union Act led to calls from the international labour organisation for that legislation to be reviewed. And it is now absurd that UK Ministers argue that their new approach seeks to bring us into line with other nations. Members will also have seen that the US Government made it clear, in a very public way, that it would not follow directions set in the strikes Bill, demonstrating once more how attacks on workers' rights are harming our global reputation. Llywydd, this Bill makes provisions that will have a detrimental impact on devolution and the delivery of Welsh public services. These are services overseen on the basis of mandates provided by the people of Wales, and it is an affront to devolution that UK Ministers should seek to exercise powers that will impact on these services without any electoral mandate or the consent of this Senedd. So, I call upon all Members of this Senedd to stand up for democracy and to withhold their consent to this regressive and divisive Bill.
It is not just about the reserved area of industrial relations, it is also about the way in which public services are delivered, and fundamentally undermines Welsh Government social partnership, which has worked so well between businesses, trade unions and Government. The concept of minimum service levels, as far as they can be considered to be a coherent idea holding this Bill together, is based around an idea that the UK Government alone should determine levels of services, including in areas devolved to the Senedd and overseen by Welsh Ministers. Even the UK Government admits the incoherence of this approach. In its own consultation documents, the UK Government admits that services are run differently in England, Scotland and Wales and are the responsibility of the Scottish and Welsh Governments respectively, yet we were not consulted by the UK Government prior to the Bill's introduction in Westminster.
Across all the devolved services that are within the scope of this Bill, Wales has its own strategic and operational approaches, and these cannot be divorced from the provisions in the Bill, which interfere directly with devolution and which stand to undermine the model the Welsh Government has adopted with employers and trade unions across those services. UK Ministers, who are oblivious to how devolved public services are run in Wales, who are not democratically accountable for their delivery, and who have no direct knowledge of local circumstances, are in no position to determine minimum service levels in Wales. And the consequences of them acting in this way are not only wrong but they are very high risk. Let's take fire and rescue services, just one of many examples Ministers could give. Any attempt to establish a minimum service level would require detailed local information of fires and other risks. It would require knowledge of locations and facilities, such as oil refineries, ports, tall residential buildings, in which the risks are greatest. It would require knowledge of the current disposition and availability of crews, appliances and specialist assets available to respond, and knowledge of how these risks vary during the year due to seasonal factors. It is not possible to generalise about all of these factors, or to purport to determine minimum service levels based on a simplistic percentage of firefighting staff, and it is a dangerous arrogance to think these complex factors can somehow be centrally planned in Whitehall.
This is a Bill that’s being rushed through the Westminster Parliament, and that is why we have a framework Bill that includes Henry VIII powers for UK Government Ministers—powers for them to do just about anything they choose. I’ll say that again: powers for them to do just about anything they choose. These are unacceptable, anti-democratic and draconian powers, which we cannot and we should not consent to—not when so many of our devolved public services are captured by this Bill.
Let me also say that, contrary to the distortion and the mythology being described by the UK Government that these powers are on a par with other industrial countries, in a vain attempt to try and legitimise this legislation, I’ll just say this—it is wholly false. It is wholly false. These powers go way beyond other European and international legislation, and I call upon all Senedd Members to withhold their consent, and I call upon the UK Government to take note of this debate, to take note of the strong feelings expressed, and to act accordingly. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The Counsel General and Members of the Senedd will know that the role of our committee is to look at the constitutional and legal aspects of this, and to put to one side the political or the policy issues that I’m sure other Members will speak to.
So, Llywydd, we reported on this legislative consent memorandum on 30 March. We drew one conclusion and we made one recommendation. We noted the Welsh Government’s assessment of the provisions within the Bill that require the consent of the Senedd, as set out in the memorandum. A majority of the committee agreed with the Welsh Government, and indeed the legal advice that was put in front of the committee, that clauses 1 to 3 of the Bill, and paragraphs 1 and 2 of Part 1 of the Schedule to the Bill, did indeed require the consent of the Senedd, that they fall within Senedd areas of competence.
A majority of the committee also considered that clauses 4 to 6 of the Bill also required the Senedd’s consent. That’s actually contrary to the view of the Welsh Government. We took this view because these clauses provide for the extent, commencement and the short title relating to all provisions within the Bill, some of which will require consent where they relate to devolved matters—indeed, those matters that the Counsel General has touched upon, which are health and education, things like fire and rescue, and indeed some transport services. All members agree with the Welsh Government that the Senedd’s consent is not required for paragraphs 3 to 10 in Part 2 of the Schedule.
So, our single conclusion in the report reflects the position on consent that I have just outlined. Clause 3 of the Bill confers on the Secretary of State a regulation-making power to make further consequential amendments that arise from the Bill. The Counsel General touched on this in his opening remarks. Regulations that make consequential provision may amend, repeal or revoke an enactment passed either before the Act or later in the same session of Parliament as the Bill. So, in doing this, clause 3(5) allows the Secretary of State to amend an Act or a Measure of Senedd Cymru. However, the power would be exercised without any role for this Senedd. We do not consider this to be acceptable. This again represents the majority view of the committee.
Our report also notes that the UK Government believes that the provisions within the Bill relate solely to reserved powers and that it has not requested the Senedd’s consent. Given this view, we recommended that the Counsel General should, in advance of the debate on today’s motion, clarify then what steps the Welsh Government has taken to resolve the difference of opinion it has with the UK Government on this matter. Our recommendation suggested that the Counsel General’s response should include how the new inter-governmental dispute resolution procedures agreed in January 2022, following a review, are being used, and, consequently, what further action, if any, the Welsh Government intends to take. We received a response to our recommendation yesterday and we note the points made by the Counsel General, including an exchange of correspondence with the UK Government, and we thank him for that. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Joel James MS: I think the views of this Chamber are very clear with regard to this Bill and have been expressed by all parties in previous debates. However, I have still not been swayed by any of the arguments presented by them, and I still believe that the minimum service levels strikes Bill is not only right for the people of the United Kingdom, but is also right for the people of Wales, protecting vital services during times of industrial dispute that support our most vulnerable people.
That said, in terms of legislative competence, as far as I can see it, the Bill is clearly making changes in respect of regulating employment rights and duties and industrial relations, and this is undoubtedly not in the legislative competence of the Welsh Government. This Act will not affect the devolved policies of education, health or transport. You have stated your position, Minister, that consent is required to the extent that clause 1 introduces a Schedule that enables regulations to be made in the categories of health services, education services and fire and rescue services. But, and you have to agree, this Government already complies with the regulations in these areas under existing UK laws, such as the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, so your point here is really null and void. In my mind, you could only use this argument if no parts of the health, education, fire and rescue or transport services complied with any UK laws, which it does not.
However, we need to find the points that we agree on, and I believe that we can all support the notion that it is wrong that vulnerable people, in particular children, are the ones who are most exposed to loss of service during industrial disputes. We need to recognise the need for a more robust system in place that will see children not losing out on their education and the support services that are dovetailed around it, and that people who are in need of medical treatment are not left waiting on ever-expanding waiting lists in Wales. This Government's ethos is about encouraging positive behavioural change, but this simply will not be achieved if people are not 100 per cent confident that they can rely on schools being open, long-awaited-for appointments being provided and public transport being reliable. The truth is that people won't accept anything but 100 per cent reliability. So, until you get this reliability, you will never get the behavioural changes that this Welsh Government aspires to.
We all agree that industrial disputes will happen, and we all agree that the withdrawal of labour is a fundamental right in trying to achieve fairer and safer working conditions. Indeed, I am extremely proud of my political party's record in this field. Not only have our reforms democratised trade unions by ensuring that every member is balloted, we have also legitimised trade unions in law and we have outlawed the operation of closed-shop unions. We have even introduced groundbreaking labour reforms, such as ensuring that workers and employers are equal before law in labour contracts, that workers are given contracts of employment and paid holiday, and that those workers with disabilities are fully protected and can never be discriminated against in the field of employment.
Clearly, we're all working together to protect and improve workers' rights. So, I'm curious to know, Minister, why you think it's acceptable that people can lose their jobs or have to use their precious and hard-fought-for holiday entitlement because they cannot get to work during a public transport strike, or that children who have gone through the COVID pandemic can lose out on yet more education because their school is closed. What is interesting is that, for the most part, we already have this system in place, as voluntary minimum service levels can be agreed ahead of strikes. But, as the Minister will know, these are not widely used across key sectors, and where they are their use can often be inconsistent, and that is why it is right to use legislation to enforce them.
This is why we need this Bill. By applying minimum service levels via regulation, we don't take anything away from striking workers—workers are still able to continue to exercise their fundamental right to strike—and we can help mitigate the impact of industrial action on those not directly involved in the dispute. This is why the Welsh Conservatives are urging everyone here to support this LCM.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It will come as no surprise to anyone in this Siambr that I will be opposing this LCM on behalf of Plaid Cymru. Parking to one side the contents of this particular LCM, we are fundamentally opposed to the principle of Westminster interfering in devolution. No ifs, no buts, all decisions relating to devolved areas of competence should be made in this place, in line with the democratic wishes of the people in Wales. This is the latest in a long line of examples of Westminster flexing its anti-devolution muscles, and what a disgusting example they have produced on this particular occasion. This draconian Bill has been drafted with the sole intention of undermining the long-established rights of workers and the trade unions that represent them. By threatening key sector workers with the loss of their jobs if they fail to comply with work notices, the Tories are demonstrating their utter contempt for the very people they hailed as heroes throughout the COVID pandemic. Key workers want respect, they want fair pay, not empty gestures from callous Government.
The UK already has some of the most restrictive labour laws in Europe. At a time when full-time workers throughout the public sector are struggling to afford to live due to suppressed wages and soaring inflation, the right to strike is more important than ever. With the National Education Union calculating that there has been a 23 per cent real-term decline in wages for teachers since 2010, and a 27 per cent decline for support staff over the same period, the right to strike is usually the last and only resort. Despite what many in the London newspapers would have you believe, the industrial action various groups of workers have taken is reasonable, proportionate and legitimate.
Plaid Cymru stands in solidarity with each and every worker striking for fair pay and safe working conditions, but what of the legislation itself? The regulatory policy committee, an independent group of businesses, academic and legal experts, convened by the Government, described this Bill as weak and not fit for purpose. They also suggested that some sources behind the analysis used by UK Government were a decade old. Furthermore, numerous legal scholars have highlighted how this Bill contravenes article 8 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights of 1966, to which the UK is a signatory, affirming the right of everyone to form trade unions and join a trade union of their choice. The Bill also clearly stands in direct opposition to the fair work objectives of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill here in Wales, which rightly addresses the need for the closer involvement of trade unions in Government decision making.
Suffice it to say that this Tory Government has gone to great lengths to shred Westminster's reputation for well-crafted legislation over recent years. In rejecting this LCM, Senedd Members can deliver a clear message to Sunak and co that we will not have anything to do with their shoddy, substandard and reckless methods of governance. Diolch yn fawr.

Carolyn Thomas AS: When working conditions are so bad these days, with people having to work terrible shift patterns, longer, unsociable hours that don't fit in with families or childcare, for the same amount of money or, in real terms, less because of inflationary pressures, the only power that employees have is to take a stand in unity and strike. The draconian measures this Bill seeks to impose will mean that workers could be sacked for taking action that has been agreed in a democratic ballot. Trade unions would be forced to ensure that members who vote for industrial action do not take part in that action, asking them to undermine their own democratically agreed strike and to cross the picket line—a fundamental breach of workers' rights.
The TUC has also warned that the Bill is counterproductive. We all know public services are already struggling to recruit, and the significant risk of dismissal for workers who speak up about their pay and conditions will do nothing to resolve staffing shortages. I firmly believe that this Bill should not apply to devolved public services. UK Government Ministers are not responsible for devolved public services in Wales, and they should not be given the right to impose minimum service levels on them. It would damage industrial relations in Wales and make it more difficult to deliver public services, which are already struggling. It is for these reasons that I would encourage all Members to vote against this motion and protect the rights of workers in Wales. Thank you.

Rhys ab Owen AS: This Bill is another example of poor law making coming from Westminster. On the face of the Bill, it's not clear how it would be implemented, and alarm bells should always ring when Ministers are asking through a Bill for powers to amend future Acts of Parliament. The UK Government says it's not rushing this Bill, but if that's correct, why are these sweeping powers necessary? UK Government have accepted that they don't know what changes it will need to do once this Bill is passed. That is why Ministers are being given such broad powers to amend, repeal or revoke provisions made under past or future primary legislation, including Acts here in the Senedd. What is the point of us here in the Senedd, or Members of Westminster, or peers, to be scrutinising future pieces of legislation, only for it to be amended, repealed or revoked by a UK Minister? Surely we can all agree that this is terrible law making and an undermining of Welsh devolution.
A key part of the Bill, as we've heard already, is the minimum service levels, but we're not told at all in the Bill what will be the minimum service level for each service. In fact, we don't even know which services will be included. There are sweeping categories, such as health and education—very broad—so we don't know which areas will be included in this Bill.
Also, I have no idea how it'll work in practice. Will there be different service levels for different days, for example, weekends or bank holidays? The Bill does remove protections from workers who are currently allowed to strike. It says that clearly in the UK Government explanatory notes, and I quote:
'there is no automatic protection from unfair dismissal for an employee who is identified in a valid work notice but participates in the strike'.
So, people who are now protected will not be protected under this Bill. The work notice is determined through the minimum service level, and as I've indicated, that is yet to be determined and is very vague.
Would the Welsh Government refuse to implement the provisions of the Bill against employees in the devolved public sector? Because the decision to issue work orders are in the hands of the employers. A concerted Welsh effort could make this Bill totally unworkable in Wales. The idea also that trade unions will have to police the work notices puts them in a ridiculous and untenable position. It would mean that a union would be required to ensure some of its members crossed the picket line on strike days, and a union that does not take reasonable steps to ensure this would face court action. Again, following the pattern of vagueness, the reasonable steps that a trade union will need to take are not explained in the legislation or the explanatory notes.
The purpose of this Bill at the beginning—or the predecessor Bill—was to protect public safety. Yet public safety has been removed completely from the face of this Bill. As I've previously said in the Senedd, a Secretary of State sitting in Whitehall could stop a strike because of the impact he thinks the strike will have on the rush hour in Cardiff, or she could prevent a strike because it might possibly lead to a hospital appointment being cancelled, or could possibly lead to classes being disrupted. Basically, in effect, a Secretary of State sitting in Whitehall could stop all future strikes here in Wales. This is like the days before devolution, when Tories thought Westminster and Whitehall knew best for Wales. Why do Members opposite believe that that is the best way to govern the people of Wales today in 2023?
I disagree with the UK Government that this Bill is compatible with article 11 of the human rights convention. This is another example of poor law making by the UK Government and further eroding of human rights in this country. This legislation is unfair, unjust, and undemocratic, and that's why we as a Senedd should refuse consent. Diolch yn fawr.

The Counsel General to reply to the debate. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch, Llywydd. For me, the reason why I think this legislation has come forward is because of the total incompetence of the UK Government and its total inability to engage with public sector workers. That is why we have this Bill—it's almost an inability to have proper collective bargaining, proper engagement, proper consultation and proper discussions. And you have to ask why do we need this Bill in Wales when we already have arrangements—good relationships with our businesses and with our trade unions in our social partnership arrangements.
So, it also has to be seen, I think, within an agenda that is also about restricting civil rights. We've already had legislation that restricts the right to protest. We've already had legislation that restricts the right to vote, and we will notice some of this during the local government elections. We've already had legislation that restricts trade union rights. We have proposals to restrict judicial review and to limit the rule of law. And we're now talking about an immigration Bill going forward, where the Government is saying it will consider including the ability to breach the European convention on human rights. This is part and parcel of an agenda that is about restricting rights and civil liberties. It is the product of an increasingly authoritarian and undemocratic Government that is past its time, and I'm glad that the Labour opposition—the next Labour Government, which can't come too soon—has already committed that it will repeal this legislation.
I'd just like to make a couple of comments in respect of the responses that were made to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. I very much agree with a lot of the points that were made. And, of course, this has been raised—these issues have been raised at inter-ministerial level, part of the inter-governmental proposals. They've been raised consistently in correspondence, and, in fact, there are amendments in Westminster that are tabled that are seeking to exclude devolved Government from this legislation. All I can say that's disappointing about your committee, I'm afraid, Huw, is that on something that is so fundamental—about basic rights—that it was not a unanimous position that was capable of being taken, and I think that is disappointing.
With regard to the comments that were made, the responses that were made—really, the half-hearted and I thought very weak and rather desperate comments that were made by the opposition—. And it's interesting, isn't it, that only one person who rather half-heartedly tried to stand up for this in a very, very weak Government, saying that we already have a system and that we already have a necessity to introduce legislation, when, in actual fact, there is no evidential base for that. I'm afraid that you recognise yourselves the weakness of the UK Government position—how wrong this legislation is. And it is a great disappointment that we have a Welsh Conservative Party that, on something that involves fundamental civil rights, is not prepared or able to stand up for the people of Wales.
Peredur, in terms of the comments you made, do you know who you reminded me of? When you hear Conservative politicians talking about how they admire Thatcher and so on, do you remember Thatcher's own words? Working people, the miners, were the 'enemy within'. And let's face it, the nurses, the junior doctors, the public sector workers, as far as this Government is concerned, are the enemy within. And we hear that and we see that at every particular stage.
Llywydd, in conclusion, we cannot consent to this Bill and I strongly recommend to the Senedd to put its complete opposition to it. Putting aside how the UK Government has mishandled this Bill and its lack of any respect for the Sewelconvention, Rhys was absolutely right: this is a poorly designed, ill-conceived Bill. It is a Bill being imposed on Wales, a Bill that makes provisions with regard to what are very clear devolved matters, a Bill that encroaches on the functions of Welsh Ministers, it causes extensive disruption to our public services in ways that any responsible Government would be unable to support, and I therefore ask Members to withhold consent for this Bill.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore vote on this motion. Unless three Members wish for the bell to rung, we will move immediately to the vote.

10. Voting Time

So, the first and only vote this afternoon is the vote on the LCM on the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 9—legislative consent motion on the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill: For: 15, Against: 37, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

And that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:05.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Sam Rowlands: What advice did Welsh Government receive from Audit Wales regarding Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board leaving special measures in 2020?

Mark Drakeford: As I have set out in my letter to the Llywydd, the NHS Wales escalation process does not provide advice directly to Ministers from Audit Wales. Ministers are advised by civil servants, drawing on tripartite discussion with Audit Wales and Health Inspectorate Wales.

Carolyn Thomas: How has the Welsh Government ensured that co-operative working between all stakeholders has been embedded into the new action plan agreed at the latest river pollution summit?

Mark Drakeford: Co-operation has been secured by bringing together the different sectors to develop the plan. All parties must work to identify and implement sustainable solutions to reduce pollution in our rivers and to address the current planning constraints. We all have a role to play in addressing these challenges.

Russell George: What is the Welsh Government’s policy on support for events such as Game Fair that are linked to the shooting of live quarry?

Mark Drakeford: Whilst the control of certain pest species is sometimes necessary for wildlife management purposes, the Welsh Government does not support funding activities, such as game fair, that are linked to the shooting of live quarry as a leisure activity.

Joyce Watson: What is the Welsh Government doing to boost tourism in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the Visitor Economy 2020-25', sets out our vision and ambition for the sector and outlines how we will encourage increased spend in our economy, spread benefits to all parts and tackle seasonality by positioning Wales as a destination you can visit all year round.